تويت
هذا حوار دار بيني و بين أحد المسيحيين في إنكلترا أرجو أن تعم الفائدة:
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You said: hey old buddy
You said: how are you ?
ciaran_h: Hi. I'm well.
ciaran_h: You?
You said: All praise to Allah .. I am g reat
You said: Are you at work now ?
ciaran_h: Yeah.
You said: oh .. Sorry for disturbing you
ciaran_h: No, it's fine. I'm on IM.
You said: So how is it going with ya?
ciaran_h: It's going fairly well. A bit tired though.
You said: May Allah be pleased with you ..
You said: Can we have some talk ?
You said: or is it a bad timing ?
You said: I guess it is ..
ciaran_h: I'm a little busy but sure, go ahead. I'll try to talk.
You said: Tell me my friend ... Do the Jews believe in Jesus as a prophet or God or a messanger from God?
ciaran_h: Jews don't believe that Jesus is God; they believe the Messiah hasn't yet come, as far as I know. I expect that opinion is divided on whether Jews believe Jesus to be a messenger, or whether he was someone of no importance.
ciaran_h: I don't know enough about Judaism to know.
ciaran_h: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism might be a better help than me, heh.
You said:
You said: but lets talk about what the Bible Says
You said: one of the most important messaianic prophecies about the coming Messiah was to be born from a virgin ..
You said: isn't that correct ?
ciaran_h: I don't understand what you're trying to do. It sounds like you already know of an answer and are trying to convince me of something.
ciaran_h: If so, why did you ask?
You said: lool .. it is not like that .. it is a talk .. a discussion ... you are a careful speaker
ciaran_h: But I thought you were asking me how Jews thought about the matter.
ciaran_h: What I'm trying to say is that there's probably variation in what Jews think of Jesus. ;p
You said: yeah .. thats true . I have a point to show you just few lines after
ciaran_h: Why show me?
You said: and I am trying to share it with u ..
ciaran_h: Well, okay. Go on.
You said: thanks
ciaran_h: I just don't understand why you're trying to do so, but okay
ciaran_h: So, you were saying about the Messiah being born of a virgin.
You said: hehe .. something you must understand about muslims from eastern societies, that they are different from ppl in the west . you will find it strange to see someone trying share some thoughts with you , while we think it is a good thing to do
You said: so I was talking about the Messiah coming from a virgin ..
ciaran_h: Heh.
You said: Jews where waiting for a Messiah to come whose very first sign is to be bron of a Virgin ..
You said: now lets go back to time of birth of Jesus Peace be upon him ..
ciaran_h: Okay.
You said: and lets suppose that we are both Jews at that time ..
You said: and the very first sign we are looking for was the birth of a child from a virgin ,.
ciaran_h: Okay.
You said: if that prophecy fulfill in the boy then certainly this is not the man we are waiting for ..
You said: is not in the boy'''
You said: now lets see what the Bible says about that ..
You said:
You said:
You said:
You said:
ciaran_h: I couldn't see what you wrote just there.
You said: the bible says that Mary was married to a man called Joseph the carpenter, but they did not meet yet as a husband of wife .
You said: husband and wife*
ciaran_h: Right.
You said: what the Jews knew at that time was Mary had been married to him ..
You said: nevertheless , no one can truly tell whether they had their first meeting or not ..
You said: you and I , now are Jews at the time of birth of Jesus ..
ciaran_h: Well, how do you know Jews knew that? Is it in the Qu'ran or so?
You said: I am not getting your Q
ciaran_h: Yeah, my mistake, the Qu'ran is a muslim text.
ciaran_h: I thought it was a Jewish text, sorry.
ciaran_h: ^Muslim
You said:
You said: lets go back to the that time as Jews..
ciaran_h: But why do you say Jews at the time knew that Mary was married?
You said: because that is what the Bible Says ..
ciaran_h: Wait, okay, I had misread what you said before.
ciaran_h: What do you mean, that the Bible says they were married? It says they weren't.
You said: ok .. 1 min ti get the text in Englsih
You said: to**
ciaran_h: She was *pledged* to be married.
ciaran_h: Engaged.
ciaran_h: But not yet married.
ciaran_h: Matthew 1:18.
You said: 24: When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, 25: but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus
You said: he took his wife .. and he knew her not until she had borne a son ..
You said: she was his wife, but they did not meet yet
ciaran_h: Sorry - I thought you were saying they were married before Jesus had been conceived.
ciaran_h: My mistake.
You said: so .. as you and I are Jews at that time, was Mary a Virgin woman ? Did she knew her husband or not ?? the common sense says she did ..
You said: she is married to Joseph , and the boy that comes is definitely the son of her husband unless he says otherwise
ciaran_h: Um? Joseph was surprised about the baby - he was planning to divorce her because of it, since he thought it was from someone else.
You said: But Jospeh did not divorce her .. he kept her as his wife after the angel appeared to him in his dreams ..
You said: thats why Joseph beleived that Jesus was not a son of adultery ..
ciaran_h: He didn't only keep her, he married her, as the angel said.
ciaran_h: But the Bible says he didn't "know" her, which I assume means to have sexual contact with her.
You said: now ,. you and me are Jews at that time .. and we surely know that Jesus was the son of Joseph , because he came after marraige and not before ..
You said: assume that a woman married to a man , then suddenly she asumes that the baby she had came from her while she is Virgin .. would anyone believe her?
ciaran_h: I know what you're trying to say, yes.
ciaran_h: But for one thing, if people hadn't believed her, then the text wouldn't have been written.
You said: Why God did not give the Jews a clear sign so that they would not have any execuce to disbelieve in Jesus !!
ciaran_h: Jesus addresses that himself.
ciaran_h: In Matthew 16.
You said: All jews knew Jesus as the son of the carpentor and he never said one single word about that to them!
ciaran_h: Maybe not of this, but of the more general point of signs.
ciaran_h: 1 Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; 3 and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites![a] You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet[b] Jonah.” And He left them and departed.
ciaran_h: It's against in Mark 8.
ciaran_h: 11 Then the Pharisees came out and began to dispute with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, testing Him. 12 But He sighed deeply in His spirit, and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Assuredly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.”
You said: If I were a Jew in that time , and Mary was married according to the story told by the Bible , then nothing could convince me that he came from a virgin woman unless an angle appears to me and tells me the truth just like what happened to Joseph the husband of Mary ..
You said: don't you think that God has taken from Jesus the very first importnat prophecy to be known among all ppl so that they would not have an execuce to disbelieve him
ciaran_h: The problem is, people would have wanted validation of every single thing, and even then some people wouldn't believe.
You said: would you beleive someone writing the bible after at least 30 years from the death of Jesus saying that he was born of a virgin while all Jews knew that he was the son of Jospeh ?
You said: you are born a christian . but what if you were not?
You said: even the Bible says that Jesus was the son of Joseph
You said: 16: and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
ciaran_h: It's rather silly asking me these questions. I wasn't around then. I take what I do on faith, and with the benefit of hindsight that the Bible gives. Other religions do the same with their religious texts.
ciaran_h: That verse doesn't say Joseph was the father at all.
ciaran_h: It says Joseph was the husband of Mary, and Jesus was born of Mary.
ciaran_h: Subtle difference, but important.
ciaran_h: Bear in mind that for the others it explicitly says "father". Not for that one.
You said: these are 17 verses telling the fathers of Jesus from Joseph while he had no father!
ciaran_h: Right, it's a chronology.
You said: these texts has been written in the best shot 30 years after Jesus departure
ciaran_h: And now we're onto the authenticity of the Bible, which is a completely different question.
You said: how would the Jews believe in Jesus as the Messiah while the very first prophecy about him is not proven to be correct ?
You said: do you get my point?
ciaran_h: How is it the very first prophecy?
You said: what was the poroof given to Jews at that time , that this baby was born from a virgin ?
You said: no one knew that but Mary and her husband only
You said: do you think that is fair enough?
You said: don't you see something wrong ?
You said: anything missing in this story told by the Bible ?
ciaran_h: Neither you nor I know how society worked back then.
ciaran_h: Also.
ciaran_h: This is not a simple "sharing of thoughts", btw.
You said: did you rea what Islam say about that ?
You said: read**
ciaran_h: You're actively trying to convince me of this, as I suggested at the beginning.
ciaran_h: Why are you trying to do so?
You said: lol. I am sorry to disappoint you .. but I thought u have an answer to that
You said: an answer that we can share
ciaran_h: No you didn't. "Don't you see something wrong?" isn't a question that wants an answer.
ciaran_h: It's a leading question that is basically saying "You're wrong."
You said: All I am trying to say , that we and the Quran have protected Jesus and His mother from these acusations much better that the Bible Did ..
ciaran_h: By the way, if you're going to go this method, may I remind you that there's lots of other things about Jesus that we can't conclusively *prove*.
ciaran_h: Same for other religions.
You said: Have you read before what the Quran says about this birth?
ciaran_h: Including Islam, Judaism, and other religions.
ciaran_h: No, and I don't have time right now.
You said: it is just 10 verses .. it is not that big
ciaran_h: I've already spent too much time right now.
You said: it is very importnat for someone fulfilling a prophecy that he must have a proof for it so that everyone at that time can see the fulfillment of it .. that was all my point .. and thanks for your time .
ciaran_h: No problem... sorry I can't talk. :/
You said: take your time in reading these verse from the Holy Quran - Chapter of Mary:
You said: [16] And mention in the Book (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad (peace be upon him) the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east.
ciaran_h: If you give me a reference, I'll look later.
ciaran_h: Don't quote it right now though.
You said: ok .. I will give one .. 1 min
You said: veses 16-40 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html
ciaran_h: Thanks. I'll take a look at some point.
You said: Peace be unto you and Bubye..
ciaran_h: Bye.[/CENTER]
[align=left]
You said: hey old buddy
You said: how are you ?
ciaran_h: Hi. I'm well.
ciaran_h: You?
You said: All praise to Allah .. I am g reat
You said: Are you at work now ?
ciaran_h: Yeah.
You said: oh .. Sorry for disturbing you
ciaran_h: No, it's fine. I'm on IM.
You said: So how is it going with ya?
ciaran_h: It's going fairly well. A bit tired though.
You said: May Allah be pleased with you ..
You said: Can we have some talk ?
You said: or is it a bad timing ?
You said: I guess it is ..
ciaran_h: I'm a little busy but sure, go ahead. I'll try to talk.
You said: Tell me my friend ... Do the Jews believe in Jesus as a prophet or God or a messanger from God?
ciaran_h: Jews don't believe that Jesus is God; they believe the Messiah hasn't yet come, as far as I know. I expect that opinion is divided on whether Jews believe Jesus to be a messenger, or whether he was someone of no importance.
ciaran_h: I don't know enough about Judaism to know.
ciaran_h: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism might be a better help than me, heh.
You said:
You said: but lets talk about what the Bible Says
You said: one of the most important messaianic prophecies about the coming Messiah was to be born from a virgin ..
You said: isn't that correct ?
ciaran_h: I don't understand what you're trying to do. It sounds like you already know of an answer and are trying to convince me of something.
ciaran_h: If so, why did you ask?
You said: lool .. it is not like that .. it is a talk .. a discussion ... you are a careful speaker
ciaran_h: But I thought you were asking me how Jews thought about the matter.
ciaran_h: What I'm trying to say is that there's probably variation in what Jews think of Jesus. ;p
You said: yeah .. thats true . I have a point to show you just few lines after
ciaran_h: Why show me?
You said: and I am trying to share it with u ..
ciaran_h: Well, okay. Go on.
You said: thanks
ciaran_h: I just don't understand why you're trying to do so, but okay
ciaran_h: So, you were saying about the Messiah being born of a virgin.
You said: hehe .. something you must understand about muslims from eastern societies, that they are different from ppl in the west . you will find it strange to see someone trying share some thoughts with you , while we think it is a good thing to do
You said: so I was talking about the Messiah coming from a virgin ..
ciaran_h: Heh.
You said: Jews where waiting for a Messiah to come whose very first sign is to be bron of a Virgin ..
You said: now lets go back to time of birth of Jesus Peace be upon him ..
ciaran_h: Okay.
You said: and lets suppose that we are both Jews at that time ..
You said: and the very first sign we are looking for was the birth of a child from a virgin ,.
ciaran_h: Okay.
You said: if that prophecy fulfill in the boy then certainly this is not the man we are waiting for ..
You said: is not in the boy'''
You said: now lets see what the Bible says about that ..
You said:
You said:
You said:
You said:
ciaran_h: I couldn't see what you wrote just there.
You said: the bible says that Mary was married to a man called Joseph the carpenter, but they did not meet yet as a husband of wife .
You said: husband and wife*
ciaran_h: Right.
You said: what the Jews knew at that time was Mary had been married to him ..
You said: nevertheless , no one can truly tell whether they had their first meeting or not ..
You said: you and I , now are Jews at the time of birth of Jesus ..
ciaran_h: Well, how do you know Jews knew that? Is it in the Qu'ran or so?
You said: I am not getting your Q
ciaran_h: Yeah, my mistake, the Qu'ran is a muslim text.
ciaran_h: I thought it was a Jewish text, sorry.
ciaran_h: ^Muslim
You said:
You said: lets go back to the that time as Jews..
ciaran_h: But why do you say Jews at the time knew that Mary was married?
You said: because that is what the Bible Says ..
ciaran_h: Wait, okay, I had misread what you said before.
ciaran_h: What do you mean, that the Bible says they were married? It says they weren't.
You said: ok .. 1 min ti get the text in Englsih
You said: to**
ciaran_h: She was *pledged* to be married.
ciaran_h: Engaged.
ciaran_h: But not yet married.
ciaran_h: Matthew 1:18.
You said: 24: When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, 25: but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus
You said: he took his wife .. and he knew her not until she had borne a son ..
You said: she was his wife, but they did not meet yet
ciaran_h: Sorry - I thought you were saying they were married before Jesus had been conceived.
ciaran_h: My mistake.
You said: so .. as you and I are Jews at that time, was Mary a Virgin woman ? Did she knew her husband or not ?? the common sense says she did ..
You said: she is married to Joseph , and the boy that comes is definitely the son of her husband unless he says otherwise
ciaran_h: Um? Joseph was surprised about the baby - he was planning to divorce her because of it, since he thought it was from someone else.
You said: But Jospeh did not divorce her .. he kept her as his wife after the angel appeared to him in his dreams ..
You said: thats why Joseph beleived that Jesus was not a son of adultery ..
ciaran_h: He didn't only keep her, he married her, as the angel said.
ciaran_h: But the Bible says he didn't "know" her, which I assume means to have sexual contact with her.
You said: now ,. you and me are Jews at that time .. and we surely know that Jesus was the son of Joseph , because he came after marraige and not before ..
You said: assume that a woman married to a man , then suddenly she asumes that the baby she had came from her while she is Virgin .. would anyone believe her?
ciaran_h: I know what you're trying to say, yes.
ciaran_h: But for one thing, if people hadn't believed her, then the text wouldn't have been written.
You said: Why God did not give the Jews a clear sign so that they would not have any execuce to disbelieve in Jesus !!
ciaran_h: Jesus addresses that himself.
ciaran_h: In Matthew 16.
You said: All jews knew Jesus as the son of the carpentor and he never said one single word about that to them!
ciaran_h: Maybe not of this, but of the more general point of signs.
ciaran_h: 1 Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; 3 and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites![a] You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet[b] Jonah.” And He left them and departed.
ciaran_h: It's against in Mark 8.
ciaran_h: 11 Then the Pharisees came out and began to dispute with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, testing Him. 12 But He sighed deeply in His spirit, and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Assuredly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.”
You said: If I were a Jew in that time , and Mary was married according to the story told by the Bible , then nothing could convince me that he came from a virgin woman unless an angle appears to me and tells me the truth just like what happened to Joseph the husband of Mary ..
You said: don't you think that God has taken from Jesus the very first importnat prophecy to be known among all ppl so that they would not have an execuce to disbelieve him
ciaran_h: The problem is, people would have wanted validation of every single thing, and even then some people wouldn't believe.
You said: would you beleive someone writing the bible after at least 30 years from the death of Jesus saying that he was born of a virgin while all Jews knew that he was the son of Jospeh ?
You said: you are born a christian . but what if you were not?
You said: even the Bible says that Jesus was the son of Joseph
You said: 16: and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
ciaran_h: It's rather silly asking me these questions. I wasn't around then. I take what I do on faith, and with the benefit of hindsight that the Bible gives. Other religions do the same with their religious texts.
ciaran_h: That verse doesn't say Joseph was the father at all.
ciaran_h: It says Joseph was the husband of Mary, and Jesus was born of Mary.
ciaran_h: Subtle difference, but important.
ciaran_h: Bear in mind that for the others it explicitly says "father". Not for that one.
You said: these are 17 verses telling the fathers of Jesus from Joseph while he had no father!
ciaran_h: Right, it's a chronology.
You said: these texts has been written in the best shot 30 years after Jesus departure
ciaran_h: And now we're onto the authenticity of the Bible, which is a completely different question.
You said: how would the Jews believe in Jesus as the Messiah while the very first prophecy about him is not proven to be correct ?
You said: do you get my point?
ciaran_h: How is it the very first prophecy?
You said: what was the poroof given to Jews at that time , that this baby was born from a virgin ?
You said: no one knew that but Mary and her husband only
You said: do you think that is fair enough?
You said: don't you see something wrong ?
You said: anything missing in this story told by the Bible ?
ciaran_h: Neither you nor I know how society worked back then.
ciaran_h: Also.
ciaran_h: This is not a simple "sharing of thoughts", btw.
You said: did you rea what Islam say about that ?
You said: read**
ciaran_h: You're actively trying to convince me of this, as I suggested at the beginning.
ciaran_h: Why are you trying to do so?
You said: lol. I am sorry to disappoint you .. but I thought u have an answer to that
You said: an answer that we can share
ciaran_h: No you didn't. "Don't you see something wrong?" isn't a question that wants an answer.
ciaran_h: It's a leading question that is basically saying "You're wrong."
You said: All I am trying to say , that we and the Quran have protected Jesus and His mother from these acusations much better that the Bible Did ..
ciaran_h: By the way, if you're going to go this method, may I remind you that there's lots of other things about Jesus that we can't conclusively *prove*.
ciaran_h: Same for other religions.
You said: Have you read before what the Quran says about this birth?
ciaran_h: Including Islam, Judaism, and other religions.
ciaran_h: No, and I don't have time right now.
You said: it is just 10 verses .. it is not that big
ciaran_h: I've already spent too much time right now.
You said: it is very importnat for someone fulfilling a prophecy that he must have a proof for it so that everyone at that time can see the fulfillment of it .. that was all my point .. and thanks for your time .
ciaran_h: No problem... sorry I can't talk. :/
You said: take your time in reading these verse from the Holy Quran - Chapter of Mary:
You said: [16] And mention in the Book (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad (peace be upon him) the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east.
ciaran_h: If you give me a reference, I'll look later.
ciaran_h: Don't quote it right now though.
You said: ok .. I will give one .. 1 min
You said: veses 16-40 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html
ciaran_h: Thanks. I'll take a look at some point.
You said: Peace be unto you and Bubye..
ciaran_h: Bye.[/CENTER]
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