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  • فارس الفرسان
    3- عضو نشيط
    • 12 مار, 2008
    • 387
    • ..
    • مسلم
    #1

    مناظرةلي مع مسيحي

    السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
    كثير من أعضاء هذا المنتدى أجرى مناظرات عظيمة و كبيرة مع قساوسة كبار أو منصرين أو حتى مسيحيين عاديين و لم يذكرها هنا و يفتح لها موضوع .

    و كان النصر فيها للإسلام ..
    ليس لذكاء الطرف المسلم بل لعظم دينه ..

    و أنا اعرض لكم المناوشة على أساس أن تصوبوني و تصلحوا أخطائي .

    المناوشة بالإنجليزي (وجدت فائدة من تعلمها !) و هي على شكل رسائل .
    لقد قمت باستخدام كود الاقتباس الموجود في المنتدى لتحسين شكل الرسائل في حالة اقتباس أحدنا من الآخر ( في الإيميل كنا نستخدم الرمزان > < )

    بدأت المناوشة بأنه قرأ أنني أقول أنا مسلم و أفتخر بذلك .

    فكانت الرسالة الأولى من Bob (المسيحي):

    "I am Muslim and Proud of that" this is what you say on your profile page. Why are you proud? You were born in an Islamic country. You had no say in that. You're parents are Muslim. You have no say in that. You were raised Muslim. You had no say in that.

    So by an accident of birth, you are Muslim. If you were born in Japan would you be proud to be Buddist? If born in India, would you be proud to be Hindu? In Italy, a Catholic? In United States, a Baptist? In Soviet Union, an Atheist?

    The truth is you would be proud of what ever you were. You do not know anything but Islam, so you can not say it is best. You have no reason to be proud of anything young man.

    Oh - I believe pride was Iblis's down fall..... Just saying, check the Qu'ran yourself.

    Peace of Christ and God's Blessings to you.



    رسالة فارس ( المسلم و الحمد لله):

    I am proud that I'm muslims means that what makes me proud is Islam.

    Also I believe that where were you born you will be a muslim if you were good. I know an arab poem that says:

    If the man wasn't created on happines from the first of his life
    He will lose by God and any one who believes in him will lose
    So , Moses who was raised by Gabrial was an infidel
    And Moses who was raised from Pharoah is a messenger

    Second , I studied many religions.

    Third , Jesus says :" bring my enimies and kill them infront of me"!!



    رسالة Bob:

    Faris, Thank you for your response to my e-mail, and Asallamu alaikum:

    If you are willing my young friend, I'd like to ask you to expand on a few of your comments:

    "I studied many religions."
    That's great. Who taught you about Christianity? A Christian or a Sheik? It matters because if you want to know what a religion truly believes, you ask a person of that religion. Otherwise you get a biased view of that religion.

    "Third , Jesus says :" bring my enimies and kill them infront of me"!!"
    I don't follow what you are trying to say here. You seem to be taking this verse out of context.

    Yes Jesus did say this in Gospel of Luke Chapter 19 Verse 27. It is part of a parable, not a command to physically kill enemies. In this story, Jesus is saying that those who do not work for the good of God's kingdom with the resouorces and abilities they are given ( by God) will be judge and sent to hell. And this seems to follow Islamic teaching too about Day of Judgement.

    If you'd like to read the entire parable in true context here is a link:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...27;&version=9;

    So, that said Jesus did command us to : Glorify God , be thankful to God for our daily bread. To love and pray for our enemies. Bless those who persecute you. Feed the hungry, clothe the poor, help widow and orphans. Love your neighbor as we love ourselves. Jesus also said we must pick up our cross daily and follow him - this is analogous to Islam's teaching of jihad.

    Most importantly, Jesus teaches us to forgive each other, because we are all sinners.

    Let me address the pride issue:
    God does not desire our sacrifice - He wants a contrite and sincere heart. A broken spirit that we are nothing with out Him. We rely on Him totally, even to be reconciled with Him.

    To be honest with you I am saddened that anyone can believe that they can deserve heaven.

    I am not proud to be a Christian. I an deeply humble and grateful that I am one.
    I rely on God soley for everything. And once I was broken, once I was "undone" and understood that, it made me very humble. I question my motives, Am I trying to look good in the eyes of man or am I obeying and seeking God's will?
    My good works are not done for what I might receive from God, but in appritiation for what God has done for me. Me a sinner who falls short of God's glory.

    I'll ask you to consider one more thing - eight short sentences - that Jesus taught:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...17;&version=9;

    I'm willing to continue this dialog if you'd like. If not, then may God bless you and keep you.

    My name is Bob - and I have been undone by the grace and mercy of God.

    I look forward to hearing from you.


    رسالة فارس:

    Wa alaikom...
    First , I thank for your good way of speaking except for the word " young friend " because some people use it for humilating.

    Second , I mean by "I studied many religions" I studied it from their sources , because I believe that if the truth was in the Qur'an so there is no danger reading the bible freely. I don't make anyone read it for me or think for me . I read it for myself and i find some places and passages are really words of God.
    But other passages in which i believe are corrupted , I also read them because they make me more believing in Islam . Because I compare the Bible with the Qur'an.

    Third , about what Jesus said about killing : This was explained to me after I wrote this message by a muslim sister who was a former christian.

    Now , I know that , but Christians do the same as what I did with the bible . They do that with th Qur'an .

    So , I want to make a covenant with you . Whenever you hear a verse from the Qur'an that seems wrong go and read the whole passage that verse was mentioned. Also , I'll do the same with the Bible.

    Agree ?


    Fourth , prophet Mohammad says :"I was sent to re-complete good deeds"
    and every good thing you mentioned about prophet Jesus -PBUH- is found in prophet Mohammad -PBUH-.
    Every single thing.

    You should know that most religions of the world command us to do good deeds and that is not only in Christianity. But they vary from religion to another . Maybe I'll have a debate with you later about good behaves in Islam and Christianity.

    I have a book about Christianity written by a muslim (I said to you that I don't make any one think for me , but this book was only sayings from the bible and what vatican said and bible commentators )
    this man made a chapter named good deeds in christianity.

    I want to tell you a secret : I will stand with Christians against athiests.
    But from my christian friends I knew that they will fail me .

    I want to ask a question :from which country are you ?
    Let me guess : US ?
    That question is only for ... ( I lost the word!)

    Sorry for my bad English that because I'm writing quickly.


    look forward to hearing from you.


    Faris

    رسالة Bob :

    Faris - Thank you for responding
    .

    First , I thank for your good way of speaking except for the word " young friend " because some people use it for humilating
    .



    I’m sorry if that offended you. You would not know this, but I have children older than you. So everyone younger than my children seems “young” to me... it was not meant to be humiliating, and I ask your forgiveness.



    I believe that if the truth was in the Qur'an so there is no danger reading the bible freely


    .


    I agree, but see it from the other side...



    But other passages in which i believe are corrupted ,



    Such as, if I may ask?


    I also read them because they make me more believing in Islam . Because I compare the Bible with the Qur'an


    .


    Excellent, Mohammed instructed several times to ask the people of the book and to see what was written before...


    So , I want to make a covenant with you . Whenever you hear a verse from the Qur'an that seems wrong go and read the whole passage that verse was mentioned. Also , I'll do the same with the Bible


    .



    Good plan. I agree.



    Fourth , prophet Mohammad says :"I was sent to re-complete good deeds"
    and every good thing you mentioned about prophet Jesus -PBUH- is found in prophet Mohammad -PBUH


    -.


    Yes, you are correct. But the Prophet denied Christ’s divinity, death and resurrection which is the pivitol beliefs in Christianity.


    You should know that most religions of the world command us to do good deeds and that is not only in Christianity. But they vary from religion to another


    .


    True Buddist, Jews and Hindus believe in doing good too, but you do not accept their religions, nor do we.


    Maybe I'll have a debate with you later about good behaves in Islam and Christianity


    .


    Good deeds are good deeds in any language or religion. The difference is that Muslims do good deeds to earn heaven. Christians believe we can not deserve heaven. In the Old testement, The prophet Isaiah wrote all are deeds are filthy rags. A better translation is polluted rags or menstrual cloth.
    In the New testament, Apostle Paul wrote: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2: 8-10)



    So you see, our teaching is that we are God’s created with a specific purpose. Nothing we can do will earn us more merit.


    I have a book about Christianity written by a muslim (I said to you that I don't make any one think for me , but this book was only sayings from the bible and what vatican said and bible commentators


    )


    I should say something to this: Many Christian do not believe that the Vatican teaches true Christianity. For many reasons, but they teach works, ritual, praying to Saints and Isa’s mother Maryam. None of these can be justified from Bible.



    And until the last 20 years, the actually discouraged people from reading the Bible - which gave priests a lot of power over people!!!



    I am a Protestant - I believe you can come to know God’s will through the Bible alone. We are saved through Faith Alone, and Faith is a gift from God, so that makes Salvation possible through God alone.



    this man made a chapter named good deeds in christianity.



    Yes - remember this is talking about Catholic doctrine.. To the Protestant, Good deed are the result of our salvations, our gratitude to God.. Not the way we get or earn salvation.



    I want to tell you a secret : I will stand with Christians against athiests



    Agreed - they are the biggest threat and growing faster than any religion is growing. But there is always a hope that God will call some of them back to faith.



    But from my christian friends I knew that they will fail me .
    I’m sorry you expeirenced this. But sadly as a whole many “christians” don’t really know their belief in detail so they can not make a strong defense against the atheist. I assume your Christian friends are your age? I will admit this to you. I’m 44, and until the last year I was not able to make a strong defense either. God put an unquenchable hunger in my heart to learn, and thanks to the Ipod, I can listen to sermons, seminary teachings... Now I am finding myself in a position to witness to atheists and counter their arguements.,



    Let me guess : US ?
    Yes
    Sorry for my bad English that because I'm writing quickly
    .
    Actually you did very well. I’m sorry I could not make a longer response at this time, but I’m at work and must attend to that.



    look forward to hearing from you.
    Me too.




    Bob ( undone1963)



    رسالة فارس:



    I believe that if the truth was in the Qur'an so there is no danger reading the bible freely
    .
    I agree, but see it from the other side


    ...


    Didn't understand !


    But other passages in which i believe are corrupted ,
    Such as, if I may ask

    Chronociles is one example

    .


    Fourth , prophet Mohammad says :"I was sent to re-complete good deeds"
    and every good thing you mentioned about prophet Jesus -PBUH- is found in prophet Mohammad -PBUH


    -.


    Yes, you are correct. But the Prophet denied Christ’s divinity, death and resurrection which is the pivitol beliefs in Christianity

    Good point to start with. Jesus (PBUH) himself agrees with what Mohammad (PBUH) teaches . Mention only one passage that Jesus is saying I'm God or son of God .

    And I'm waiting for this sentence that many Christians failed to mention and made more than 2.5 million Christian become "Biblical Unitarians" and many others to converted to Islam .



    Good deeds are good deeds in any language or religion. The difference is that Muslims do good deeds to earn heaven. Christians believe we can not deserve heaven
    We believe that we don't deserve heaven , but we are working to earn it . Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) says :" No one amongst people deserve heaven " . The companions said : "Even you , messenger of God ?". He replied : " Even me . Unless God become mercy with me ".
    (sorry for the bad translation)


    I should say something to this: Many Christian do not believe that the Vatican teaches true Christianity


    .


    Yes , so we also study other Christian believes.
    And when i said the vatican , it was only an example . It also mentions things about Protestants and Orthodox and even Gnostics.



    I am a Protestant
    When you say you are Protestant , 2 things will jump to my mind :
    1- You are better than Catolics and Orthodox
    The Qur'an teaches us that Christians in the past (Catholics and Orthodox) worship their priests because they accept whatever they say without thinking or seeking for the evidance in the bible as if they were gods.



    2- Protestants made muslims lose palestine.
    Martin Luther wrote 2 books :
    A- In the first he was with jews
    B- In the second he became an enemy.
    But you still follow the first . I don't want you to hate jews but Protestants should return everything in its place.




    I believe you can come to know God’s will through the Bible alone. We are saved through Faith Alone, and Faith is a gift from God, so that makes Salvation possible through God alone


    .


    That's exactly what I read in a muslim site about the belife of Protestants.
    There used to be a Muslim group who believed like you , Faith is enough and you don't need to work or go to mosque , pray , fast , make Hajj ....etc . They are called "Al morjia" المرجئة
    We are tought in school in the subject of "Monothiestic" how to answer . There are 2 ways to answer : one from Islamic sources (Qur'an : word of Allah , Hadeeth: Word of the prophet PBUH ) and the other way is by mind and thinking.
    Since you are Christian i'll answer you from Christian sources and from mind.
    First , Jesus (PBUH) says : " Everyone shall take his cross and follow me " so you're commanded to follow him and work and not depend on his crucifixion to get salvation .
    Second , if you love a person you will work and do good deeds for him . We hear many news about people who cut parts from their body to show a woman that he loves her.




    But from my christian friends I knew that they will fail me .
    they are older than me .
    And when I said they will fail me , I didn't mean they will fail to to stop athiests , I mean they will stand against islam in the army of athiests . They will work against Islam as if they were one religion :"Christo-athiest".
    A Muslim man used to say : Infidlality is one religion .
    Now I believe him truly , so no matter what non-Islamic religion you were , you will always work against Islam .
    This again makes me sure that this is the religion of God.



    رسالة Bob:



    I'm going to break my response to your last into several messages so we can keep topics seperate



    .



    I believe that if the truth was in the Qur'an so there is no danger reading the bible freely
    .


    I agree, but see it from the other side


    ...


    Didn't understand


    !


    I meant I believe Bible is truth so no danger for me to read Qu’ran



    But other passages in which i believe are corrupted , Chronociles is one example.



    There are two books of Chronicles. Can you give me specific examples of corrupted passages?




    Mention only one passage that Jesus is saying I'm God or son of God .



    Muslims play word games because “Jesus never said...”
    Let me ask you this: If a man went around telling people, “ I am God, worship me.” what would most people think? He’s crazy! Same 2000 years ago. People saw the miracles and healings and said Jesus was of the devil. Why would they believe a man was God incarnate?
    Instead, Jesus subtly revealed himself to those who followed in his actions. Those who were pious in action only were blinded in their hearts. Not that it would convince you, I believe you have hardened your heart to it, but here’s a few.



    John 8:58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am.



    I Am, was the name God used when Moses asked what God's name was...



    John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?



    Matthew 26:63-64: 63 But Jesus remained silent.(B) And the high priest said to him,(C) "I adjure you by(D) the living God,(E) tell us if you are(F) the Christ,(G) the Son of God." 64Jesus said to him, (H) "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on(I) you will see the Son of Man(J) seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."



    Luke 22: 67-69 67Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.



    Here’s what others said:
    Luke 5:19-21 and when they could not find by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the midst before Jesus. And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?



    Matthew 16:16 -17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



    Luke 18:18 - 19 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.



    In this last verse, Jesus did not deny he was God, He was asking the ruler, “ Do you realize what you just called me?”



    رسالة Bob:



    We believe that we don't deserve heaven , but we are working to earn it . Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) says :" No one amongst people deserve heaven
    " .



    It is prideful and arrogant to think God would owe us anything. He has already given us life and sustenance.
    We deserve punishment. “All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.”
    “All our good deeds are as filthy rags.” In original hebrew, this refers to pollute mensural rags.



    So if we are so detestable to God how can we earn salvation? Rather salvation is a mercy from God to those fully trust in Him. Thinking




    Yes , so we also study other Christian believes. And when i said the vatican , it was only an example . It also mentions things about Protestants and Orthodox and even Gnostics
    .



    The Gnostics were declared heretic early on.



    When you say you are Protestant , 2 things will jump to my mind :



    1- You are better than Catolics and Orthodox
    I don’t think I am better than anyone. I am a sinner, You are a sinner, the Pope is a sinner, your sheik is a sinner. Mohammed was a sinner. We all, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddist, Hindu, atheist are sinners and need God’s mercy to reconcile

    The Qur'an teaches us that Christians in the past (Catholics and Orthodox) worship their priests because they accept whatever they say without thinking or seeking for the evidance in the bible as if they were gods


    .


    I would be interested in seeing that Surah. And it occured to me: Isn’t this what Shi’ites do?




    - Protestants made muslims lose palestine.
    How? The first crusade was in 1095 AD The final crusade was in 1271. Martin Luther did not even appear in histories radar screen until 1517.



    >Martin Luther wrote 2 books : A- In the first he was with jews B- In the second he became an enemy.
    Luther wrote many books. Yes early writings defended Jews. t is said Luther did and said a lot of weird things toward the end of his life including anti-Jewish sentiments. The people who inherited the reformation did not subscribe to the anti-Jewish statements and dismissed it as Luther going senile in his old age.
    BTW - I was raised Lutheran.



    I don't want you to hate jews but Protestants should return everything in its place.
    I don’t have anything, I swear! really!




    رسالة Bob:



    First , Jesus (PBUH) says : " Everyone shall take his cross and follow me " so you're commanded to follow him and work and not depend on his crucifixion to get salvation
    .
    I’m glad you brought this point up!!!
    I see “Taking up your cross” as the Christian equivalent of a jihad of the heart. What is the greatest jihad? Fighting the kufir? Well according to hadith (sorry forgot which one) that is the lesser jihad. The greatest Jihad is fighting the evil inside us.



    Second , if you love a person you will work and do good deeds for him .
    YES! YES! A thousand times YES!!!! Our good works are for what we HAVE received, not what God will owe us!!!



    Look, I used to have a job were the boss was a real bad person. Still, I did a good job because I needed the money, not because my boss was wonderful.


    We hear many news about people who cut parts from their body to show a woman that he loves her


    .


    That’s not love, that is obsession. Does it ever make the woman love him? No - Just like our works are filthy rags to God.



    And when I said they will fail me , I didn't mean they will fail to to stop athiests , I mean they will stand against islam in the army of athiests . They will work against Islam as if they were one religion :"Christo-athiest


    ".



    That’s sad. I see only one enemy though to all mankind. Satan. Islam teaches this too. The deceiver, the Liar, Whisperer into men’s heart. Atheists are decieved.



    And I admit - I believe Muslims are decieved. You are being blinded from experiencing God’s full love through Jesus. I do not want to destroy Islam, I want muslims to share in the hope that I an millions have found in Jesus.



    A Muslim man used to say : Infidlality is one religion .



    Good saying, Wise man.


    Now I believe him truly , so no matter what non-Islamic religion you were , you will always work against Islam


    .


    I’m not working against Islam, I’m letting God work through me to share the Good News with others. Still, I can only speak it - God enables belief, but the truth must be proclaimed.



    I’m just a beggar (sinner) trying to tell other beggars were I found bread. Jesus is the Bread of Life. With him will never hunger spiritually



    Peace my friend I look forward to hearing from you.
    Bob



    )



    رسالة فارس:



    There are two books of Chronicles. Can you give me specific examples of corrupted passages


    ?


    All the 2 books. I don't believe in a single word from them . If you noticed that the writer of them didn't think that they will be from God . he always say stories about Jews and their kings . What will I gain from that . While the Qur'an says in the end of many stories :
    " لقد كان في قصصهم عبرة لأولي الألباب"



    ...




    I'll complete this message later ...



    رسالة فارس:



    The Gnostics were declared heretic early on
    .
    I know . Also they were slaughtered in the first


    I don’t think I am better than anyone. I am a sinner, You are a sinner, the Pope is a sinner, your sheik is a sinner. Mohammed was a sinner.We all, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddist, Hindu, atheist are sinners and need God’s mercy to reconcile

    So , do you think that only Christians will enter the heaven ? or the kingdom ?


    Mohammed was a sinner



    No he's not . And if he was , then there is no one who deserve the word human . He was the true human , the father , the husband , the teacher , the commander , the shiek.



    Isn’t this what Shi’ites do



    You mean indulgencies ?


    Yes , but we believe that they are still muslims . But they believe we aren't . Al Khomaini (their pope) detributed the keys of heaven . While in islam we don't have a pope or a human who determins my fate .
    We believe we are all sinners except prophet Mohammad (PBUH). He was the complete man.
    Shi'tes problem is that they mix Islam with pagan cults because they are Iranian ( Persian ) and they used to have Zradishtian , Majosia (worshipping fire) , Yazediya ...etc


    How? The first crusade was in 1095 AD The final crusade was in 1271. Martin Luther did not even appear in histories radar screen until 1517

    I don't mean you've done that through crusades but through supporting Israel .



    I want to ask you what is the difference between Lutherian and Protestant ?



    رسالة فارس:



    I believe Muslims are decieved. You are being blinded from experiencing God’s full love through Jesus
    I believe the same too with christians . You are being blinded from experiencing God’s full love through worshipping him straightly . You've failed to bow and put your head on the ground to worsip him . You've failed to change your life and give it as a gift ( filthy rig as you say) to God . Even if it's a filthy rig but God will accept because we are poor .



    I’m not working against Islam, I’m letting God work through me to share the Good News with others
    .
    That what Bush said when he invaded Iraq !!!
    Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) says :"... and if they say to you judge us by the law of Allah and his messenger , then say no : I'll judge you by my judge " (so if he made a mistake in his judge , God will be offended and people will say that he's a bad god . While the mistake wasn't from God , but from the man )



    NOTE: the Gnostics were slaughtered by the Albaginsian crusade . They were scared and chased till Islam came to Palestine and save them from other Christians . Then they made their choice and became Muslims.
    God is love !!
    (I say this because I haven't completed my words in the last message)





    رسالة Bob:


    Hello Faris, Good to hear from you.
    ". he always say stories about Jews and their kings . What will I gain from that . "



    I see. Chronicles are historicle books. But if you look at them, and 1 & 2 Kings, (Actually whole Old Testement) you see the repeating theme in history: Israel sins, sin seperates them from God. God sends warning, Israel does not pay attention, God punishes, Israel returns to God, God forgives... things go good for awhile and then cycle repeats.



    Now apply this to our individual lives. We forget we owe God for everything, we become self reliant, God punishes, we come back to God.... repeat.



    Or more simply: We sin, we repent, God forgives. (Repeat




    رسالة Bob :



    >So , do you think that only Christians will enter the heaven ? or the >kingdom ?
    Yes, this is what Bible teaches - If you believe in Jesus and trust him for your salvation then you will be saved.

    What I understand aboout Islam is that all will be judged. Since I believe Christ is God's son then I would not merit paradise (Say not three: Desist, It is better for you...) no matter how good I have been.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "the kingdom. "

    Mohammed was a sinner.
    No he's not .... He was the true human
    ...
    Will put the standard Christian arguements aside, and I ask you this: Did not Mohammed say that satan tricked him in some of the Qu'ran? The "satanic verses" were he was deceived to make comprimise?
    This would be a sin - but Mohammed repented. Still to be human is to be sinner.

    Surah 18:110 Allah tells Mohammed that he is like any other man
    and Surah 40:55 Allah tells Mohammed to repent

    But I don't really want to argue about the Prophet. You say he was a complete man, but he did not start to receive Qu'ran until he was 40 - was he sinless before that?


    Thanks for your definition of Shia - they really sound a lot like Catholics.

    I don't mean you've done that through crusades but through supporting Israel .
    I see, I quess I misinterpreted what you were saying.

    I want to ask you what is the difference between Lutherian and Protestant ?
    How much time do you have???
    OK short answer. Lutherans were the origional protestants in 1517. There are many protestant denominations today. Protestant mainly means "not Catholic" we aren't under the Pope or Rome's influence.

    Since 1517 different groups have understood the Bible differently. Some of this is just surface issues such as music styles, worship styles or church governance, the role of women in ministry.... Other issues are different understandings of how Salvation works, sequence of events before the day of Judgement. Others say God miracles and prophesy cessed after the Jesus's disciples die while others believe that God still does miracles, healings and such.

    Then there are liberal denominations who let women be ordained pastors, and even let homosexuals be pastors. In the Bible a case can be made for or against women, so this is an issue of "Christian liberty" . But there is no ambiguity that people living in open sin should be excluded from church leadership. Denominations with orthodox views do not associate with these churchs.

    Dispite our differences, a Christian is one who believes Christ was divine, God is trinity but still indivisable, and that Jesus provided the atonement for our sins through his sinless life, death on the cross and ressurection.

    Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses use the Bible but do not teach this so they should not be considered Christian.

    Catholics teach Christ and Trinity, but they pray to saints and Mary. The whole 'keys to the kingdom" you discribed and that good works are required in additiion to Christ for salvation. Many other things that cannot be justified Biblically....



    Catholics



    رسالة Bob:


    I believe the same too with christians . You are being blinded from experiencing God’s full love through worshipping him straightly . You've failed to bow and put your head on the ground to worsip him . You've failed to change your life and give it as a gift ( filthy rig >as you say) to God . Even if it's a filthy rig but God will accept because we are poor

    .

    I thank you for your honesty. And I would admit many who call themselves Christian fit this. But a true Christian is one who realizes that God want s a "contrite heart and broken spirit" and makes his life a "Living sacrifice". I have seen many lives drastically changed when God has done a work in the heart. I'm one. It would take too long to explain, but once God allowed me to face consequence of my sins and I started reading Bible and Studying and Accepted Christ as my savior - I wanted to stop those thing that dishonored God and I have huge hunger to learn and to understand and share with others!!! Just because we don't bow toward Mecca or make a Hajj doesn't mean that we aren't bowing in our hearts.

    I'll ask you - do you believe God answers prayer? We (wife and I ) have had prayers answered when we pray to God in Jesus's name. Can Shaytan answer prayers? Why would God answer our prayers if Christians were so seperated from God
    ?
    I’m not working against Islam, I’m letting God work through me to .share the Good News with others
    .
    That what Bush said when he invaded Iraq
    !!!
    I see how you think that, but Bush was talking about democracy not religion.

    Still, I think we will not agree on this since you have your world view and I have mine. But please understand this: In the West, we don't have a deen. The country is not the religion and the religion is not the country. So there is very real error in seeing the invasion of Iraq as a religious crusade. And I tell you the truth, it is all about oil. Anything else is a secondary motive.


    NOTE: the Gnostics were .... were scared and chased till Islam came to Palestine and save them from other Christians
    .
    Never heard that. But gnostics I am familar with were around in first and second century - 400 - 500 years before Islam. And what they claimed were incompatable with Islam. But it is possible that they were around in seventh century and found protection by converting... yet no one knows what is in a man's heart but God.


    God is love !!
    I just don't see that in Qu'ran. Merciful, forgiving, powerful... I just don't see love - true caring and personal love, in the 99 names.

    Well we have a holiday weekend here so I will look forward to hearing from you next week.
    Bob






    و غدا بإذن الله أكمل وضع بقية الرسائل التي انهزم فيها المسيحي و أقر بالهزيمة



    حمل كتاب
    الكلمات الدلالية (Tags): لا يوجد
    • د.أمير عبدالله
      حارس مؤسِّس

      • 10 يون, 2006
      • 11248
      • طبيب
      • مسلم
      #2
      السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته .... حقيقة حِوار أكثر من رائِع ... وقرأتُه كامِلاً لأنه يُذكُِّرُني بأيام مضت في حوارات الغرب ... ولكِن هذا الشخْص غير مسيحي عادي , بل مُبشِّر وأيْضاً مش مُبشِّر قوي وإنما هو ثُعْبانٌ أكْبَر , ومُتمرّس جداً جداً في الإسْلامِيات ... هو اتى خِصِّيصاً لتشكيكِك غير مباشر في الاسلام ... فهو دارِس بل شارِب وقايِم نايم في حلة "طِشْت" شُبهات من وضْعِ موقع مُجاوَبة الإسْلام .. هذا الشخْص يعي جيِّداً ما يقول ... وغالب هذه النوْعِيّة هم بروتِستانت .. وأكثرهم كُفْراً وفُجْراً فهم مِثْلَ بروتِستانت العرب ... فإن كان بروتِسْتانت العرب أكثر تفهُّماً كما يظُن العربي المُسْلِم ... فكذلِكَ يُظْهِر البروتستاني الغربي نفسه .... وما هو إلا ثوب يبُث لك من تحتِهِ نتن عرقِ الكُفر ...!!

      حقيقة أبْلَيَْت معه بلاءاً حسناً ... وإن كنت لا أعلم لما لم تُكْمِل الآية القرآنية وشرْحها .. ولما لم ترُد عليه الفقرات التي أتى بها للإسْتِدلال على الألوهِيّة ... ولما لم ترمِهِ في قفص صْنعه هو بيدِه ؟!!

      عموماً نهاية هذا الرجُل معكَ غاِلِباً:
      أن يتْرُكَكَ ويرْحل دون أي مُقدِّمات .. إن لم يسُبك !
      أو أن يقول الله محبة ولازم تخلُص وهي كده وده اللي عندي وسلام ..!!

      لا تجْعلهم في المرة القادِمة يبحثوا عنك , ولكِن ابحَث أنت عنهم
      بمعنى امثال هؤلاء معد باجِنداتِهِم الخاصة سلفاً , وأتاك مخصوص ليفرِش لك هذه الفرشة , من جملتِك المكتوبة التي عرفت بها نفسك .. فظن أنكَ الصيد السمين له ... والتعب معهم كحال التعب مع نصارى العرب ,,, لن يُجْدي كثيراً ..

      أما ان بحثت أنت عنهم كاثوليك او بروتِستنات ... وأفردت لهم ما عِنْدَك من الحق لرُبما وجدت الخير الكثير بعد محادثتين ثلاثة ... وأحييك من كل قلْبي على حِوارِكَ للغرب ... أعانك الله ,فكم أتمنى حقيقة أن أنفض الكسل وأعود لِحِوار الغرب .. لأكسب الثواب والأجر .... فربما تأتي يوم القيامة بجيش من المُسْلِمين الجُدد ... هم في حاجة عميقة لي ولك ولكل مُسْلِم قادِر على دعْواهُم ...

      هذه الرسالة غير نقدِيّة .. بمعنى لا أسلِّط الضوء على أي اخطاء او ثغراتٍ ربما تنبّهتُ لها ... اترُك هذا إلى أحد الإخوة الأحباب ... إن أحببت أن يتِم نقد الرسالة لعمومِ الإفادة ... وجُزِيتُم خيْراً

      أخيراً أفضِّل أن :
      1- تسمِّيها بحيث نقوم بتغيير العنوان إلى هذا الاسم الذي ستسميه , لأن الاسم الحالي هكذا "منارة لي منع مسيحي " لن يجعل أحد بعد قِدَمِها ومضي الايام ينظُر إليها , فغالبا يُحب الانسان ان يعبر عنوان الموضوع عن محتواه.
      2- ان نقوم بنقلِها إلى قسم اعداد الدعاة بالإنْجليزية.

      وأخيراً جزاكم الله خيراً , على إمتاعِنا بهذا الحِوار , وفي شوْقٍ لإكمالِهِ ورؤيا نِتاجِه.
      "يا أيُّها الَّذٍينَ آمَنُوا كُونُوا قوَّاميِنَ للهِ شُهَدَاء بِالقِسْطِ ولا يَجْرِمنَّكُم شَنئانُ قوْمٍ على ألّا تَعْدِلوا اعدِلُوا هُوَ أقربُ لِلتّقْوى
      رحم الله من قرأ قولي وبحث في أدلتي ثم أهداني عيوبي وأخطائي
      *******************
      موقع نداء الرجاء لدعوة النصارى لدين الله .... .... مناظرة "حول موضوع نسخ التلاوة في القرآن" .... أبلغ عن مخالفة أو أسلوب غير دعوي .... حوار حوْل "مصحف ابن مسْعود , وقرآنية المعوذتين " ..... حديث شديد اللهجة .... حِوار حوْل " هل قالتِ اليهود عُزيْرٌ بنُ الله" .... عِلْم الرّجال عِند امة محمد ... تحدّي مفتوح للمسيحية ..... حوار حوْل " القبلة : وادي البكاء وبكة " .... ضيْفتنا المسيحية ...الحجاب والنقاب ..حكم إلهي أخفاه عنكم القساوسة .... يعقوب (الرسول) أخو الرب يُكذب و يُفحِم بولس الأنطاكي ... الأرثوذكسية المسيحية ماهي إلا هرْطقة أبيونية ... مكة مذكورة بالإسْم في سفر التكوين- ترجمة سعيد الفيومي ... حوار حول تاريخية مكة (بكة)
      ********************
      "وأما المشبهة : فقد كفرهم مخالفوهم من أصحابنا ومن المعتزلة
      وكان الأستاذ أبو إسحاق يقول : أكفر من يكفرني وكل مخالف يكفرنا فنحن نكفره وإلا فلا.
      والذي نختاره أن لا نكفر أحدا من أهل القبلة "
      (ابن تيْمِيَة : درء تعارض العقل والنقل 1/ 95 )

        تعليق

        • zaki
          مشرف أقسام النصرانية

          • 7 يون, 2007
          • 3338
          • مسلم سني
          #3
          السلام عليكم
          و الله شوقتنا لمعرفة ما درا بين الأخ فارس و المسيحي من حوار يا أستاذ أمير فأنا بصفتي لا أفقه في الإنجليزية أحب أن تترجم لنا الحوار أخي فارس فأكيد سنستفيد ما دام أثنى عليك الأستاذ أمير
          جزاك الله خيرا

          إهداء لخصمنا الكريم
          سَلِ الرّماحَ العَوالـي عـن معالينـا *** واستشهدِ البيضَ هل خابَ الرّجا فينا
          لمّـا سعَينـا فمـا رقّـتْ عزائمُنـا ******** عَمّا نَـرومُ ولا خابَـتْ مَساعينـا
          قومٌ إذا استخصموا كانـوا فراعنـة ً*********يوماً وإن حُكّمـوا كانـوا موازينـا
          تَدَرّعوا العَقلَ جِلبابـاً فـإنْ حمِيـتْ******* نارُ الوَغَـى خِلتَهُـمْ فيهـا مَجانينـا
          إذا ادّعَوا جـاءتِ الدّنيـا مُصَدِّقَـة ً ********** وإن دَعـوا قالـتِ الأيّـامِ : آمينـا
          إنّ الزرازيـرَ لمّـا قــامَ قائمُـهـا ************تَوَهّمَـتْ أنّهـا صـارَتْ شَواهينـا
          إنّـا لَقَـوْمٌ أبَـتْ أخلاقُنـا شَرفـاً ******** أن نبتَدي بالأذى من ليـسَ يوذينـا
          بِيـضٌ صَنائِعُنـا سـودٌ وقائِعُـنـا ************خِضـرٌ مَرابعُنـا حُمـرٌ مَواضِيـنـا
          لا يَظهَرُ العَجزُ منّـا دونَ نَيـلِ مُنـى ً********ولـو رأينـا المَنايـا فـي أمانيـنـا
          كم من عدوِّ لنَـا أمسَـى بسطوتِـهِ ***** يُبدي الخُضوعَ لنا خَتـلاً وتَسكينـا
          كالصِّلّ يظهـرُ لينـاً عنـدَ ملمسـهِ *****حتى يُصادِفَ فـي الأعضـاءِ تَمكينـا
          يطوي لنا الغدرَ في نصـحٍ يشيـرُ بـه***ويمزجُ السـمّ فـي شهـدٍ ويسقينـا
          وقد نَغُـضّ ونُغضـي عـن قَبائحِـه*********ولـم يكُـنْ عَجَـزاً عَنـه تَغاضينـا
          لكنْ ترَكنـاه إذْ بِتنـا علـى ثقَة ************إنْ الأمـيـرَ يُكافـيـهِ فيَكفيـنـا





          [rainbow]حربا على كل حرب سلما لكل مسالم 02:03 4 / 06 / 11 [/rainbow]

            تعليق

            • امادو
              3- عضو نشيط
              • 17 أبر, 2008
              • 377
              • مسلم
              #4
              السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
              أخى فارس
              جزاك الله خيرا على الموضوع الشيق
              كان طويلا ولم أشعر....
              وفقك الله للمزيد بعد هذا المجهود الرائع
              امادو
              يارب إن عظمت ذنوبى كثرة .........فلقد علمت بأن عفوك أعظم
              إن كان لايرجوك إلا محسن .........فبمن يلوذ ويستجير المجرم
              أدعوك ربى كما أمرت تضرعا .........فإذا رددت يدى فمن ذا يرحم
              ما لى إليك وسيلة إلا الرجا ...........وجميل عفوك ثم أنى مسلم
              كتاب رؤية عصرية لقضايا كتابية فى الميزان
              (المختصر المفيد)

                تعليق

                • فارس الفرسان
                  3- عضو نشيط
                  • 12 مار, 2008
                  • 387
                  • ..
                  • مسلم
                  #5
                  السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

                  الأستاذ أمير عبد الله :
                  بالفعل أنا في غاية السعادة أنك قرأت موضوعي بل و أفتخر و لم أعتقد أن يرد عليه أحد ، إذ أن حراس العقيدة لهم مشاغلهم و أمور هي بالفعل أهم من موضوعي و مناظرات قوية على أصول .

                  لكن الذي حفزني على وضعها أمور منها:

                  1-أنها أول مناظرة لي.
                  2- أني بعمر 17 سنة بينما محاوري بعمر الـ 44 سنة ( و أنت قرأت عندما سماني "صديقي الصغير")
                  و هذا لعله يحفز البعض على المحاورة فلا يلزم أن تكون ذكيا كالشيخ أحمد ديدات- رحمه الله - حتى تكسب المناظرة بل أنت قوي بقوة دينك و عظمته .
                  3-أني أنتظر منكم الإرشاد و التوجيه .

                  أما الآيات القرآنية فأنا أحب أن أكتبها بالعربية ثم أكتب الترجمة ، و كانت مرة واحدة التي لم أترجم وهي آية ( " لقد كان في قصصهم عبرة لأولي الألباب") كانت لاستعجالي الشديد ..

                  أما فقرات الاستدلال عن الألوهية فهي في الرسائل التي سأضعها الآن بإذن الله ..
                  و هي الحمد لله أخرسته و هذا بفضل الله ثم بفضل الكتب في منتدى حراس العقيدة .


                  ومُتمرّس جداً جداً في الإسْلامِيات
                  نعم صدقت أستاذ أمير .. فهو كما تلاحظ يستخدم الألفاظ الإسلامية !
                  فلا يقول جيسس بل يقول عيسى .
                  و يسمي الشيطان إبليس.
                  و لا يقول ديفيد بل داود .

                  فهو دارِس بل شارِب وقايِم نايم في حلة "طِشْت" شُبهات من وضْعِ موقع مُجاوَبة الإسْلام
                  لو أردت أن ترى صفحته لرأيت العجب العجاب من الروابط التي تحارب الإسلام !
                  (سأرسلها بإذن الله على الخاص)

                  أن يتْرُكَكَ ويرْحل دون أي مُقدِّمات
                  هذا ما حدث بعد أن غير الموضوع

                  فظن أنكَ الصيد السمين له
                  و هذا ظاهر من أول رسائله .. فكان يقول هذا دين السلام ووو... ( الرسالة #2 له و الثالثة في المناوشة).

                  و أقترح أن تسمى "لا تدعيني و لا أدعوك : ألوهية المسيح + الكثير من المناوشات (إنجليزي)"

                  معذرة على الاسم الطويل !
                  هل من اقتراح لتقصيره ؟

                  أما نقله لقسم تدريب الدعاة بالإنجليزي فلا أحبذه ، لأن الموضوع فيه من الأخطاء النحوية و الإملائية الكثير .. بالإضافة إلى أنه ليس تعليم و شرح بالإنجليزي.


                  مشكوور جدا على المرور.




                  الأخ zaki.mok :
                  المناظرة طويلة جدا على القراء .
                  و أخشى من أن أضيع جهدي بالترجمة ثم لا يقرأها أحد ..
                  و أنا عندما وضعتها قلت : إن قرأها أحد فخير ، و إن لم يقرأها أحد فلم يضع مني شيء !
                  و لكني سأقوم بوضع اختصار لمجريات المناظرة و الترجمة لأهم الفقرات إن شاء الله .
                  مشكور على المرور ( فينك ؟ من زمان فاقدينك ! الحمد لله على السلامة )


                  الأخ أمادو :
                  هي بالفعل طويييلة ..
                  مشكور على المرور
                  وفقنا الله و إياكم لفعل الخير ..


                  تتمة الرسائل :

                  رسالة فارس:

                  No No

                  The writer when he wrote these books didn't make in his mind that they will be one day sacred !

                  I have my evidence and when I complete it I'll send it to you.

                  Now tell me what I'll gain from the insict between Judah and his father's wife ? What morals I gain?



                  رسالة فارس:

                  Yes, this is what Bible teaches - If you believe in Jesus and trust him for your salvation then you will be saved
                  Only Christians ? No Muslims , Jews , Budhists...?

                  What I understand aboout Islam is that all will be judged. Since I believe Christ is God's son then I would not merit paradise (Say not three: Desist, It is better for you...) no matter how good I have been
                  But we believe good non-Muslims will be given what they did in earthly -life . So if you do good job to people Allah will give it again to you in earthly life.

                  I'm not sure what you mean by "the kingdom.
                  I don't know ! Arabic Christians use it !!
                  Did not Mohammed say that satan tricked him in some of the Qu'ran? The "satanic verses" were he was deceived to make comprimise?
                  This would be a sin - but Mohammed repented. Still to be human is to be sinner
                  .
                  This is a fake story made up on Muslims and it doesn't have "Sanad" to be authentic. Now , you see that you make people think for you.
                  Surah 18:110 Allah tells Mohammed that he is like any other man and Surah 40:55 Allah tells Mohammed to repent
                  I'll explain that in a long message . I know a person who got a PhD in it !
                  But I don't really want to argue about the Prophet. You say he was a complete man, but he did not start to receive Qu'ran until he was 40 - was he sinless before that
                  ?
                  Was Moses (PBUH) the same ??

                  And thanks for the explaining of Lutherian .


                  رسالة Bob:

                  Now tell me what I'll gain from the insict between Judah and his father's wife ? What morals I gain?
                  Glad you asked! But I think you are mixing up stories. Does this appear in Qu’ran? I can only give you the Biblical account.

                  Judah’s brother Reuben had sex with his father’s wife - and because of that he lost his birth right as first born

                  In the Bible, Judah had sex with his daughter in law named Tamar. The moral of that story is that Judah’s first two sons died, and according to tradition of the time, if a male died without producing a son, His brother was to marry the widow and have a child for his brother. This was essential because the son would take care of the mother in her old age.

                  So, two of Judah’s sons died without producing an heir. His third son was very young at the time, so Judah sent Tamar back to her father until the third son was old enough to marry. But Judah was afraid his third son would die too so he never sent for Tamar to return.

                  Tamar had a right to a son (by marriage). In desperation, she disguised herself as a prostitute and had relations with Judah. See she is trying to keep the lineage of her first husband. When Judah found out that Tamar was pregnant, he had a fit because of her immorality. But Tamar produced proof Judah was the father (and guilty of immorality also) Judah realized that he was guilty and that he had broken his promise to take care of Tamar. Tamar was wrong to deceive Judah, but Judah stated that his sin was greater. Judah repented and Bible says that he took her into his household and provided for her, but not as a wife, as a daughter.

                  In the book of Genesis, it was Judah who sold Yusaf into slavery. Judah left his father’s house after that, but after the Tamar story he returns to his fathers house. Judah was with his brothers when they went to Yusaf for provisions. Yusaf wanted to hold Benjamin captive, but Judah volunteered to stay in Benjamin’s place until his brother’s returned with Jacob (Yusaf’s father).

                  This is actually part of a longer story, but the entire yusaf story is about redemption. A shadow of God’s redemption through Jesus.

                  Because Judah repented, God set his tribe as the people who were the lineage of King David (Dawood) and Jesus.


                  رسالة Bob:

                  Yes, this is what Bible teaches - If you believe in Jesus and trust him for your salvation then you will be saved
                  .
                  Only Christians ? No Muslims , Jews , Budhists
                  ...?

                  While God hasn’t revealed his plan for people who never heard the Injeel, Jesus said in John 14:6 “ Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

                  And in Matthew10:33: 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
                  Whatever, God’s judgement is, it will be so perfect and perfectly just that even people sent to hell will agree with God totally.

                  But we believe good non-Muslims will be given what they did in earthly -life . So if you do good job to people Allah will give it again to you in earthly life
                  .
                  Thanks faris, I did not know that there was hope in Islam for non-Muslims.
                  I'm not sure what you mean by "the kingdom. "
                  I don't know ! Arabic Christians use it
                  !!
                  I’m not sure what the Araqb context is, but this may be in reference to Kingdom Building. Doing good, setting example, charity, moral life style.... Things that bring glory to God. Also sharing Gospel with others so that they might receive salvation.

                  This is a fake story made up on Muslims and it doesn't have "Sanad" to be authentic. Now , you see that you make people think for you
                  .
                  I want to ask you this: Until eight weeks ago, all I knew of Islam was that you had the Five Pillars, the hatred for Jews and a lot of Muslims seem to want to destroy my country by violence.

                  Since then, I have learned a lot and received a lot of information. But, I don’t know what has good Sanad and what does not have good Sanad. Actually, I think I first heard the word Sanad two weeks ago. So, IF I error would you assume that I have bad information and it is a chance for you to educate me. Don’t condemn please, I am trying to learn and I have a lot of information to sort out.

                  [
                  QUOTE]But I don't really want to argue about the Prophet. You say he was a complete man, but he did not start to receive Qu'ran until he was 40 - was he sinless before that?
                  Was Moses (PBUH) the same ??
                  [/quote]
                  Yes, Moses killed a man and had to escape to desert for 40 years until God called him back to Egypt to deliver Israel from slavery.
                  Abraham and all prophets except Isa were sinful. But that shows me that God can use us for His glory and purpose even in our sinful nature.

                  Like I said, I don't want to argue about the Prophet. I just see Muslims making him out to be super human and I think there is real danger in putting too much focus on
                  a messanger and not enough focus on the message giver

                  رسالة فارس الأولى في الرد على ألوهية المسيح:

                  John8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

                  If you noticed in my KJV they wrote" I am" and not "I Am."

                  I want to know what do you mean by this verse?
                  1- Do you mean Jesus is God because he says : " I am" so he doesn't have an end and a strart ?
                  2- or Do you mean "I am" is the name of God in Hebrew?

                  Don't worry I'll answer the two.

                  1-This doesn't mean the true existance of Jesus as a man , BUT THE EXISTANCE OF FATE AND CHOOSING .
                  Like what Paul says:

                  Eph1:4** According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world**, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

                  and like what God says to Jermiah in Jer1:5

                  Jesus was created !


                  Col1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every *creature*

                  So Jesus have a start.
                  And don't say to me : That's the flesh
                  Because he's talking about Jesus the god




                  And I don't believe in saying of Paul




                  :If Jesus is God for that so Melichizidik is also because he doesn't have a start or an end and no father and mother ... so he excels Jesus
                  !!

                  Read also Pro8:12-15


                  2- "Ejo Aimi" doesn't mean YHWH or God.
                  God is Theos.
                  YHWH is translated to LORD (Kyrios).
                  Ejo Aimi means I am.

                  Peter said : Ejo Aimi
                  The blind said : Ejo Aimi
                  Gabrial said : Ejo Aimi
                  Jesus said : Ejo Aimi

                  Who's God from them (if you still believe Ejo Aimi means God)


                  رسالة فارس الثانية في الرد على ألوهية المسيح:

                  The context says that Jesus said to his desciples:

                  John14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
                  John14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
                  John14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
                  John14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
                  John14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
                  John14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

                  means following his religion is the only way to reach God & his heaven , as Peter says:


                  Acts10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
                  Acts10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and **worketh righteousness, is accepted with him**

                  Then Philip asked him to show them God , but Jesus yelded him and said :
                  .
                  John14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

                  mean : How do you ask this Philip , AND YOU ARE A JEW AND YOU KNOW THAT GOD CAN'T BE SEEN , so the one who saw me saw the Father WHEN HE SAW ACTS OF GOD (MIRACLES) THAT GOD SHOWED THROUGH MY HANDS.

                  And this looks like what is mentioned in Mark:


                  Mark9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me,** receiveth not me, but him that sent me**

                  The text doesn't mean that the child Jesus held is the Jesus , and it doesn't mean Jesus is the Father . But he is telling that WHO MAKES GOOD DEEDS WITH THE CHILD , is
                  and for the sake of God

                  The seeing here is not real (only by meaning) and there is an evidence for that , JESUS HAVEN'T CLAIMED THAT HE IS THE FATHER , AND NO CHRISTIAN CLAIM THAT.

                  and what makes us sure that the seeing is only by meaning (not true) that he said:


                  John14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; **but ye see me**: because I live, ye shall live also.

                  He's not talking about a real seeing , because he's talking about his ascending to the heaven , then the world won't see him nor his desciples , so he's talking about the **seeing of belief and knowing that his desciples and other believers see ** which infidels don't see.

                  Also what came in Mathew is a witness:


                  Mat11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: **and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son**, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

                  And that what he meant by the seeing in the verses which you talked about , and it's similar to:


                  John12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, **believeth not on me**, but on him that sent me.
                  John12:45 **And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.**
                  John12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
                  John12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
                  John12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
                  John12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
                  John12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


                  And when he says :And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me " can't mean that who sees the Father (the sender) sees the son (who was sent) unless the sender was the the person who was sent , and this is impossible because Jesus said :


                  John14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for **my Father is greater **than I.

                  Also he said :

                  John10:29 My Father, which gave them me,** is greater than all**; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

                  And this using of the way of seeing is known in the Old-Testament like:


                  1Sm8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
                  1Sm8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
                  1Sm8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
                  1Sm8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: **for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.**



                  رسالة فارس الثالثة في الرد على ألوهية المسيح:

                  Mat26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
                  Mat26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

                  if you noticed when the priest asked him : Are you the son of God ?
                  He answered : I'm the son of man

                  So he didn't say I'm God or Son of God

                  And when he say : sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

                  He didn't mean he's God because of that . He is not a God but this means that he is loved by God and God will accept his wills and make them . So he will be from those who are close.

                  Also ascending to heaven doesn't mean he's God because :
                  * Elijah went to the heaven (2Ki 2:11)
                  * Enoch walked with God !! (Gen5:24) and ascended

                  The same is with:


                  Luke22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
                  Luke22:68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
                  Luke22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.


                  رسالة فارس الرابعة في الرد على ألوهية المسيح:

                  Luke5:19 And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the midst before Jesus.
                  Luke5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
                  Luke5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

                  If you looked at the story , Jesus didn't say : I FORGIVE YOU SINS but he said : "thy sins are forgiven thee"
                  So it's in the passive voice and the subject is unknown ( the subject is God)

                  This text is similar to the one about women:


                  Luke7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
                  Luke7:48 And he said unto her, **Thy sins are forgiven**.
                  Luke7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
                  Luke7:50 And he said to the woman,** Thy faith hath saved thee**; go in peace.

                  Jesus noticed that so he said : "Thy faith hath saved thee" . As if he says : You're not saved and your sins are forgived by my will but I'm telling you that your faith will do that.

                  And what makes me sure that Jesus can't forgive sins that he said : "
                  Luke23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."
                  I wonder : If he can forgive sins , why did he ask the Father to do that?!


                  رسالة فارس الخامسة في الرد على ألوهية المسيح:

                  Mat16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
                  Mat16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.




                  Do you agree with me that Mark is the first gospel written ?

                  read what mark says :


                  Mark8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
                  Mark8:30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

                  What !!

                  That is a corruption Mathew added

                  So Peter says according to mark : you are the Christ

                  While he says according to Mathew : He adds : You're the son of God and Jesus says the flesh shown to you ?!!

                  Again it's same to message #2
                  (if you still believe that's not a corruption)


                  the seventh evidence is saying : Jesus in not God!
                  I wonder how you change evidences ?!


                  Have a nice weekend

                  Faris


                  رسالة Bob في الرد على "رسالة فارس الأولى في نفي ألوهية المسيح":
                  ( إيجو إيمي + ملكيصادق )

                  John8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
                  If you noticed in my KJV they wrote" I am" and not "I Am
                  ."

                  You’re right, that was my emphasis. But what is Jesus saying? He existed before Abraham.
                  The I AM was the name of God revealed to Moses. The Greek equivalant (ego eimi) is not a common term used in the New Testament. It is a direct declaration of divinity.

                  Still not convinced? Read the next verse, John 8:59: Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

                  Why? Because the religious leaders though he had commited blasphemy by declaring himself divine.

                  Eph1:4** According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world**, that

                  we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
                  and like what God says to Jermiah in Jer1:5
                  Jesus was created !

                  Eph 1:4 and Jer1:5 talks about God having a purpose, not about existence.


                  > Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every *creature*
                  Firstborn in the original Greek, prōtotokos , the root is prōtos meaning first in rank, influence or honor.
                  In Christ, we are born again, a new creature. Colossians 1: 15-20 is talking about spiritual creation, not the creation of earth. Christ is “firstborn” the beginning of God’s new covenant with mankind. Not a physical creation.
                  If Jesus is God for that so Melichizidik is also because he doesn't have a start or an end and no father and mother ... so he excels Jesus
                  WOW! I’m surprised a Muslim pulling out Melichizidik !!! You are a well studied man.
                  Still you can’t claim Melchizedek has no father or mother. The Bible is silent on that. Following your logic, Jonah, Lut, and many others who we don’t hear about their parentage would excel Jesus.
                  Even so, some Christian theologians suggest Melchizedek is actually a preincarnate appearance of Jesus. Genesis 14:18 gives the first account of Melchizedek. Melchezidik is described as a High Priest and King of Salem (hebrew for peace). Jesus is our High Priest in Heaven, our mediator before God. Jesus is called the Prince of Peace.

                  Second, Book of Hebrews Chapter 5 and 7 clearly shows Jesus is in the order of and higher than Melchizedek. Perhaps because the jews still thought Melchizedek was a man and not an appearance of the Messiah!!!


                  Read also Pro 8:12-15

                  12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.
                  13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.
                  14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine; I have understanding and power.
                  15 By me kings reign and rulers make laws that are just;

                  I’m sorry, I don’t see the connection to the previous discussion on Melchizedek or Jesus’s divinity


                  2- "Ejo Aimi" doesn't mean YHWH or God.

                  God is Theos.
                  YHWH is translated to LORD (Kyrios).
                  Ejo Aimi means I am.

                  Peter said : Ejo Aimi
                  The blind said : Ejo Aimi
                  Gabrial said : Ejo Aimi
                  Jesus said : Ejo Aimi
                  Who's God from them (if you still believe Ejo Aimi means God)

                  I’d need to know the verses referenced before I can answer you

                  رسالة Bob في محاولة إثبات ألوهية المسيح :

                  Faris, I do not have time to respond point by poin to what you wrote (below) but I do want to thank you fo taking so much time.. It helps me understand the Muslim mind.

                  For know, I'll submit this for your consideration, and I still have three more e-mails from you to answer that I will get to later this week. Hope that is okay, but I need to get to my job now.

                  John 20:25-29
                  25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

                  26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

                  27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

                  28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

                  29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

                  Notice Jesus did not tell Thomas he was wrong. Jesus accepted Thomas's worhip.

                  John 14: 6-9
                  6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
                  7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
                  8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
                  9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

                  Faris, When Jesus shows submission to the Father, it is not because he is less than the father in divinity, but because while he was a man, "he was made a little lower than the angels." What is Jesus going to do? Disobey God's will? No, God had a plan, Christ fulfilled it in odediance.

                  I have to go for today.
                  Bob


                  The context says that Jesus said to his desciples:

                  John14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
                  John14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
                  John14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
                  John14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
                  John14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
                  John14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

                  means following his religion is the only way to reach God & his heaven , as Peter says:


                  Acts10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
                  Acts10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and **worketh righteousness, is accepted with him**

                  Then Philip asked him to show them God , but Jesus yelded him and said :
                  .
                  John14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

                  mean : How do you ask this Philip , AND YOU ARE A JEW AND YOU KNOW THAT GOD CAN'T BE SEEN , so the one who saw me saw the Father WHEN HE SAW ACTS OF GOD (MIRACLES) THAT GOD SHOWED THROUGH MY HANDS.

                  And this looks like what is mentioned in Mark:


                  Mark9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me,** receiveth not me, but him that sent me**

                  The text doesn't mean that the child Jesus held is the Jesus , and it doesn't mean Jesus is the Father . But he is telling that WHO MAKES GOOD DEEDS WITH THE CHILD , is
                  and for the sake of God

                  The seeing here is not real (only by meaning) and there is an evidence for that , JESUS HAVEN'T CLAIMED THAT HE IS THE FATHER , AND NO CHRISTIAN CLAIM THAT.

                  and what makes us sure that the seeing is only by meaning (not true) that he said:


                  John14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; **but ye see me**: because I live, ye shall live also.

                  He's not talking about a real seeing , because he's talking about his ascending to the heaven , then the world won't see him nor his desciples , so he's talking about the **seeing of belief and knowing that his desciples and other believers see ** which infidels don't see.

                  Also what came in Mathew is a witness:


                  Mat11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: **and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son**, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

                  And that what he meant by the seeing in the verses which you talked about , and it's similar to:


                  John12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, **believeth not on me**, but on him that sent me.
                  John12:45 **And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.**
                  John12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
                  John12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
                  John12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
                  John12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
                  John12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


                  And when he says :And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me " can't mean that who sees the Father (the sender) sees the son (who was sent) unless the sender was the the person who was sent , and this is impossible because Jesus said :


                  John14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for **my Father is greater **than I.

                  Also he said :

                  John10:29 My Father, which gave them me,** is greater than all**; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

                  And this using of the way of seeing is known in the Old-Testament like:


                  1Sm8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
                  1Sm8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
                  1Sm8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
                  1Sm8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: **for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not r
                  رسالة Bob في الرد على "رسالة فارس الثالثة و الخامسة في نفي ألوهية المسيح ":
                  ( و فيها سقط بوب و الاعتراف المخفي بالخسارة )

                  Faris thank you for your long messages. I think this is getting to a point where we must be honest. I will not convience you of Christ's deity and you will not persuade me otherwise.


                  I am not unwilling or unable to defend my faith, I just don't have the time to make a point by point refutation to you. If you are really interested in specifics, there are many resources available to you that you can read at your liesure.

                  A do appritiate the insight into the Muslim mind though. We can continue if you'd like, and I would enjoy that, but we should stick to specific questions - just learn from each other, and understand what each religion teaches. We don't have to argue or convience each other, just understand. Does this sound acceptable to you? We can add that to covenant.

                  I'm going to make an answer for the integrity of the Gospel, and I'll answer shorter e-mails that follow, but I have other obligations that prevent me from going into great depth.

                  Would you still be willing to answer quetions about Islam and Muslim culture?


                  رسالة Bob في الرد على "نفي ألوهية المسيح ":
                  ( غفران الخطايا)

                  And what makes me sure that Jesus can't forgive sins that he said : "
                  Luke23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."
                  I wonder : If he can forgive sins , why did he ask the Father to do that?!



                  Jesus as God forgive people's sins. In the verse above, He asks the father to forgive the people for their ignorance and their specific sin against Him personally. And, if you read further in the accouont of the crucifiction, the Roman officer in charge of the crucifiction was so moved by this, that he said " Surely this is the Son of God.

                  رسالة فارس في الرد على "قصة يهوذا و القصص الجنسية في البيبل":

                  But the language seems not moral.

                  Read this (this is the most shameful sin mentioned in the Qur'an):

                  وَلَمَّا جَآءَتۡ رُسُلُنَا لُوطً۬ا سِىٓءَ بِہِمۡ وَضَاقَ بِہِمۡ ذَرۡعً۬ا وَقَالَ هَـٰذَا يَوۡمٌ عَصِيبٌ۬ (٧٧) وَجَآءَهُ ۥ قَوۡمُهُ ۥ يُہۡرَعُونَ إِلَيۡهِ وَمِن قَبۡلُ كَانُواْ يَعۡمَلُونَ ٱلسَّيِّـَٔاتِ‌ۚ قَالَ يَـٰقَوۡمِ هَـٰٓؤُلَآءِ بَنَاتِى هُنَّ أَطۡهَرُ لَكُمۡ‌ۖ فَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَلَا تُخۡزُونِ فِى ضَيۡفِىٓ‌ۖ أَلَيۡسَ مِنكُمۡ رَجُلٌ۬ رَّشِيدٌ۬ (٧٨) قَالُواْ لَقَدۡ عَلِمۡتَ مَا لَنَا فِى بَنَاتِكَ مِنۡ حَقٍّ۬ وَإِنَّكَ لَتَعۡلَمُ مَا نُرِيدُ (٧٩) قَالَ لَوۡ أَنَّ لِى بِكُمۡ قُوَّةً أَوۡ ءَاوِىٓ إِلَىٰ رُكۡنٍ۬ شَدِيدٍ۬ (٨٠)


                  TRANSLATION:
                  And when Our messengers came unto Lot, he was distressed and knew not how to protect them. He said: This is a distressful day. (77) And his people came unto him, running towards him - and before then they used to commit abominations - He said: O my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. Beware of Allah, and degrade me not in (the presence of) my guests. Is there not among you any upright man? (78) They said: Well thou knowest that we have no right to thy daughters, and well thou knowest what we want. (79) He said: Would that I had strength to resist you or had some strong support (among you)! (80)

                  END OF TRANSLATION

                  See how the language is moral ! I don't feel ashamed to read these verses infront of my mother or sister.
                  The main part that thee verses focus on is the bad people and not mentioning their story . This is not a book of history this is a book of faith !!

                  What about Aholia and Ahlabia (spelling?) ??
                  And the bad messengers ??

                  رسالة Bob في الرد على " المقارنة بين القرآن و البيبل في شأن القصص الجنسية":

                  See how the language is moral ! I don't feel ashamed to read these verses infront of my mother or sister
                  .

                  Ah, I see. Is your quarrel with what might be learned from the story of Judah or the way it is spoken?

                  I'll admit, the Qu'ran does appear to be more delicate on these sensitive matters.


                  But, If Allah created these things, why should we be ashamed to speak of them? And why should we be afraid to call sin for what it is and talk of it in acceptable speach?


                  What about Aholia and Ahlabia (spelling?) ??


                  And the bad messengers ??

                  I don't know who these are, would you know the verse in Bible so I can look at English names?




                  رسالة فارس:


                  the hatred for Jews and a lot of Muslims seem to want to destroy my country by violence.


                  It's not the hatred for Jews but the hatred for Zionists .
                  And It's not the hatred for American nation but the hatred for American government that supports Israel till the last coin of their money.


                  Yes, Moses killed a man and had to escape to desert for 40 years until God called him back to Egypt to deliver Israel from slavery.


                  Abraham and all prophets except Isa were sinful. But that shows me that God can use us for His glory and purpose even in our sinful nature

                  All prophets aren't sinful in Islam . We don't believe many of what the bible teaches about prophets.
                  But we believe that they make sins .
                  We believe Abraham made 3 lies only TO SAVE HIMSELF.
                  We believe Moses killed a man BY MISTAKE.
                  We believe David made a mistake in his judgement.
                  We believe Adam ate from the tree.

                  As I said to you , I want to explain this to you in next messages (So you'll not say Muslims run away from these questions)
                  Like I said, I don't want to argue about the Prophet. I just see Muslims making him out to be super human and I think there is real danger in putting too much focus on a messanger and not enough focus on the message giver
                  .
                  We believe that you have done worst!
                  You've made Jesus (PBUH) not a super human but the God of glory !
                  And you've ignored Abba (or YHWH or Adonai or...) and loved him more than anything !

                  We focus on prophet Mohammad (PBUH) because he's a human and we can act like him . We try to eat like him , walk like him , and sleep like him ... etc

                  Allah was mentioned more than 2000 times in the Qur'an.
                  And Mohammad was mentioned 5 times !
                  While ( Moses= more than 100 , Jesus=25 by name , Abraham =69 , Isaac=17 , Ishmael=12 (the father of Arabs!) , Joseph=27 , Jacob = 16 ...)

                  One jew said : By the God of Moses such & such ...! A Muslim slapped him and said : By the God of Mohammad !
                  Prophet Mohammad said : don't make me higher than my rank ! Moses is better than me !!

                  Read this verse :
                  قُلۡ إِنَّمَآ أَنَا۟ بَشَرٌ۬ مِّثۡلُكُمۡ يُوحَىٰٓ إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلَـٰهُكُمۡ إِلَـٰهٌ۬ وَٲحِدٌ۬‌ۖ فَمَن كَانَ يَرۡجُواْ لِقَآءَ رَبِّهِۦ فَلۡيَعۡمَلۡ عَمَلاً۬ صَـٰلِحً۬ا وَلَا يُشۡرِكۡ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِۦۤ أَحَدَۢا (١١٠)


                  TRANSLATION:

                  Say: I am only a mortal like you. My Lord inspireth in me that your God is only One God. And whoever hopeth for the meeting with his Lord, let him do righteous work, and make none sharer of the worship due unto his Lord. (110)

                  Surat Al Kahf 18

                  END OF TRANSLATION

                  So any Muslim who says : O Mohammad give me strength or anything like this . He will be considered a Mushrik (sharer) and he's not a muslim any more.

                  I hope that my message is clear.



                  رسالة Bob :

                  And It's not the hatred for American nation but the hatred for American government that supports Israel till the last coin of their money.


                  So, we should just stop supporting Israel, and stand by an let Hamas and Hizballah move in and slaughter all the Jews and re-establish Palatine? Then when the Jews are gone, the Arab world will have nothing more to blame America and the West for and we can stop living in fear of Muslims bombing our buildings, trains and buses?
                  We believe Abraham made 3 lies only TO SAVE HIMSELF.
                  The sin of the lie was compounded because he did not trust God to protect him.
                  We believe Moses killed a man BY MISTAKE.
                  Accidentally perhaps, but he still had to flee Egypt.
                  We believe David made a mistake in his judgement.
                  Well, if you call adultry and intentionally sending the woman's husband to death a judgement error. I call that premeditated murder.
                  We believe Adam ate from the tree.
                  So do we, and God held Adam , not Eve responsible.

                  As I said to you , I want to explain this to you in next messages (So you'll not say Muslims run away from these questions)
                  You've made Jesus (PBUH) not a super human but the God

                  of glory ! And you've ignored Abba (or YHWH or Adonai or...) >and loved him more than anything !
                  Yes, because we believe Jesus is God, and No to second part because we love the father through Jesus, because the Father sent Jesus. They are one and the same.

                  Allah was mentioned more than 2000 times in the Qur'an.
                  And Mohammad was mentioned 5 times !
                  By name, how many time's is he refered to as "Allah's messanger" ?
                  Prophet Mohammad said : don't make me higher than my rank ! Moses is better than me !!
                  Interesting, is that from Qu'ran or Hadith?
                  So any Muslim who says : O Mohammad give me strength or anything like this . He will be considered a Mushrik (sharer) and he's not a muslim any more.
                  I hope that my message is clear.

                  Yes, thank you. something I am curious of: why do Muslims always add the PBUH whenever a prophet is mentioned? If they are already in Allah's care, what more can you add to him?

                  رسالة فارس في نفي ألوهية المسيح :
                  ( ملكيصادق + إيجو إيمي):

                  The Greek equivalant (ego eimi) is not a common term used in the New Testament. It is a direct declaration of divinity.
                  Give me one evidence that ego eimi is used to refer to God in the septagant (Only one!).
                  Still not convinced? Read the next verse, John 8:59: Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
                  That because Abraham is sacred and if anyone says he's better they will do the same . And if he claimed to be God , they will kill him from that moment and not till he says : You'll see the son of man ... and they'll not seek lier-winesses.

                  Still you can’t claim Melchizedek has no father or mother
                  Heb 7:3
                  Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
                  Even so, some Christian theologians suggest Melchizedek is actually a preincarnate appearance of Jesus.
                  The verses are clear .They say "like" and not he is Melchizidik.

                  King of Salem (hebrew for peace).
                  Salem is different from Shalom .
                  Salem is שָׁלֵ֔ם.
                  Shalom is שָׁלֹ֑ום.
                  Jews say Salem is Jerusalem.
                  Jerome, however, states that the Salem of Melchizedek was not Jerusalem, but a town eight Roman miles south of Scythopolis, and gives its then name as Salumias, and identifies it with Salem, where John baptized.

                  It doesn't have to do anything with Shalom !

                  I’d need to know the verses referenced before I can answer you
                  luke 1:19
                  I am Gabriel
                  εγω ειμι γαβριηλ
                  Ego eimi Gabriel


                  Acts 10:21
                  I am the one
                  εγω ειμι ον ζητειτε
                  ego eimi hos Zeteo

                  Sorry,I've lost the passage about the blind ..


                  Again , I say as the Qur'an says:

                  ( قُلۡ إِن كَانَ لِلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ وَلَدٌ۬ فَأَنَا۟ أَوَّلُ ٱلۡعَـٰبِدِينَ (٨١

                  T:
                  Say (O Muhammad): If the Beneficent One hath a son, then, I shall be first among the worshippers. (81)
                  Surat Al-Zokhrof 43
                  EOT:


                  رسالة فارس:

                  I will not convience you of Christ's deity and you will not persuade me otherwise.

                  That's the point I want t reach .
                  The divinity of Jesus from the bible -if we believed completely in it- is controversial (debateable).
                  I just don't have the time to make a point by point refutation to you. If you are really interested in specifics
                  Yes , we too don't have the time.
                  I waned to ask you today not to answer me mails !

                  Why?
                  This will be explained in my next messages.

                  there are many resources available to you that you can read at your liesure.

                  Sure , I take my information on Christianity from these sources..
                  Everyday I enter:
                  -***************
                  -**************
                  -**************
                  ( أسماء مواقع مسيحية - حجبت من قبل كاتب الموضوع )
                  So if I read a verse , I read the commentary.

                  We don't have to argue or convience each other, just understand. Does this sound acceptable to you? We can add that to covenant.
                  Yes , I need a Christian friend to ask him and take the Christian point of view . I know a very very bad athiest (************) on youtube he sends me videos against Islam . I give him the Islamic point of view that he don't understand , He's an athiest (no mind) I can't convince him.


                  Would you still be willing to answer quetions about Islam and Muslim culture?

                  Sure




                  رسالة فارس في الرد على موضوع " القصص القذرة":

                  But, If Allah created these things, why should we be ashamed to speak of them? And why should we be afraid to call sin for what it is and talk of it in acceptable speach?

                  Allah created evil , but his doesn't mean this is acceptable.
                  Satan is created .. By whom ? by God ..
                  Otherwise we'll be Gnostics !
                  God gave us the ability to blaspheme , but this isn't acceptable.

                  What about Aholia and Ahlabia (spelling?) ??
                  Oholibah & Ohola


                  رسالة فارس في "شرح بعض المسائل + معنى الحديث ":

                  So, we should just stop supporting Israel, and stand by an let Hamas and Hizballah move in and slaughter all the Jews and re-establish Palatine? Then when the Jews are gone, the Arab world will have nothing more to blame America and the West for and we can stop living in fear of Muslims bombing our buildings, trains and buses?


                  We shouldn't talk about these political issues.
                  All what we ask is peace.

                  The sin of the lie was compounded because he did not trust God to protect him.
                  We don't believe in the "compound" of this sin.
                  Well, if you call adultry and intentionally sending the woman's husband to death a judgement error. I call that premeditated murder.
                  NO NO we don't believe in tat at all !
                  We believe he made a mistake in judgement (you don't believe in that).


                  They are one and the same.
                  how come he say :"my father is better than me?"

                  Interesting, is that from Qu'ran or Hadith?
                  The Qur'an is Allah's word .
                  The hadeeth is the prophet's words .
                  The words of the Qur'an can't be changed even with a same meaning.
                  It's the same words no change , all Moshafs(ex.the physical book the qur'an is in "qur'an = the word of Allah") are identical 100%.
                  Changing one word with an eqivillant is HARAM. There is no thing named narrating by meaning.

                  The hadeeth words may differ from Sanad to Sanad , but the meaning is the same . We always take the best Sanad (most auhentic).
                  The degrees of hadeeth are:
                  1-Sahih (ex.correct)
                  2- Hasan (ex.good)
                  3-Dhaeef (ex.weak )
                  4- Mawdo' (ex.unaccepted)

                  The sanad is : the chain of narrators .
                  eachone of the narrators is examined and there are books about them . If the chain is complted and the each narrator is a good man , truthful , and have a good memory the hadeeth is given the degree Sahih.

                  The most athentic book after the Qur'an is:
                  1- Sahih al-Bokhary
                  2- Sahih Muslim(the author's name is Muslim)

                  Then comes Altermithy , Ibn Majah , Mosnad Al Imam Ahmad , Motaa al Imam Malik...

                  The same Sahih hadeeth occurs in dfferent books of Hadeeth.
                  If it occurs one time it's given the name "Marwy riwaya Ahad"
                  (ex.narrated a narration of ones) which means only one sanad (chain)


                  how many time's is he refered to as "Allah's messanger" ?
                  sure it'll be many times because he's the messenger .
                  The prophet was condemned many times in the Qur'an.
                  And Allah always tell us that the prophet is only an ordinary man . We shouldn't worship him nor be desrespectful with him.


                  why do Muslims always add the PBUH whenever a prophet is mentioned? If they are already in Allah's care, what more can you add to him?

                  as you know PBUH = peace be upon him
                  As I told you what the prophet (PBUH) said that no person including him deserve paradise . We believe he (PBUH) is in Allah's care but he asked us to do . He is the messenger and he can ask God by himself (We believe he'll ask God in the doomsday to help us in the judgement and 70000 will enter the paradise without judgement , others will be saved from the hell , others will take a higher rank this is called Al-Shafa'a).
                  The prophet can ask God the paradise and earn it , but that's a way to show love . you always say :HalliloYa = praise Yah(YHWH).
                  Does Yah need praising ? No , that's a way to show love.


                  The Answer


                  رسالة Bob في تغيير الموضوع !:


                  Hi Faris
                  Thanks for explaining the Sanads and the about the Prophets.

                  I have two quick questions for you.
                  1 Why do Muslim men wear beards? Is this mandatory? I do see many Muslim men in West without beard.

                  2 Why can't women drive in Saudi Arabia, but can drive in other Islamic countries? I sa a sheik on Arabic Television say women where not intelligent enough to drive, but statistics show they are actually safer drivers then men.

                  OK Thanks and have a good weekend.
                  Bob

                  رسالة فارس:


                  1- prophet Mohammad (PBUH) says: " wear beard and cut mustaches ... don't act like jews and Christians"

                  but it's not too haram to cut beard .

                  2- There is nothing in Islam saying woman should not drive cars .. these are the opinions of sheikhs ..
                  AGAIN : the source of Islam is Qur'an and Hadeeth.
                  .

                  رسالة Bob :

                  What about Aholia and Ahlabia (spelling?) ??
                  Oholibah & Ohola

                  Sorry, not familar with these. maybe something is lost in translation?


                  رسالة فارس:
                  The two from Jerusalem
                  seek their names in Ezekiel
                  The two wh*** from Jerusalem



                  رسالة Bob:

                  Thank you for answering my questions.

                  Not to be arguementive, but I don't understand about the beard because God told Jews not to cut their beards, especially the priests. If thy cut their facial ahir is was in mourning or shame.



                  ثم انتهت المناظرة لانشغالي بالأسفار لمدة شهر كامل
                  فاستغل الفرصة ليحافظ على إيمانه !
                  و لا يزال صامتا عن الأسئلة التي لم أجد لها أجوبة !

                  كيف برأيكم أعيد فتح المناظرة ؟؟

                  مشكوريييييييييييييييين على المتابعة
                  بانتظار نصائحكم

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