الآن أحاور قس ( أمريكي ) أريد أن تشتركو معي في الإجابات ومساعدتي بسرعه

**نصرة الإسلام** · 29 يول, 2009, 12:57 ص

أستاذ توحيد
هذه إضافة بسيطة إن أحببت أن تضيفها , فلتضفها
وإن لم تحب , فلا بأس

While those who give away to sins, and regret non, do not deserve to be forgiven.

And although , disobediant Muslims ( only Muslims ) are still under God's will , and He may forgive them initially without any kind of torture in Hell inspite of their great sins , and allow them entering Heaven forever ............ just because of His great mercy and kindness

OK, but mu question is "What if you didn't?"
What if you accepted Jesus as your Savior, yet kept sinning, will you still go to heaven?

And if Jesus The Savior will prevent you of punishment , why are you ordered not to do sins ??? Does this mean that you are allowed to do whatsoever you want without any kind of fear of God's punishment & torture ??? 5

**توحيد** · 29 يول, 2009, 08:33 م

جزاك الله خيرا على الإضافة الطيبة أختي الفاضلة.

والنقاط التي تناولتها في نيتي الإشارة إليها، وسأستفيد بها في رسائل قاد\مة بإذن الله .. وإن كنت أتمنى أن تتم الإشارة إليها من خلال تساؤله عنها.

**الأمير الأحمر** · 30 يول, 2009, 09:42 م

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

ما شاء الله. الحمد لله الذي أخرني عن الرد على هذه الرسالة لأرى هذه الردود الرائعة من الإخوة الكرام. أشعر أنني أنا من يكتب أخي توحيد، لا أنت. لعله "الروح القدس" يوحي لكلينا؟

بارك الله فيكم. لن أعقب وأساتذة كرام يديرون الحوار، لكن قد أضع بعض ملاحظات "لعلها" تفيد فيما يلي من رسائل.

Hi thanks for the additional info.

In Islam is there a good distinction by what would be accounted for as good and what as bad? Like if you were to keep track of the things you did in your life, could you say, right now I'm going to hell or right now I'm going to heaven?

في الواقع نعم إن شاء الله. فالله تعالى يقول "أنا عند ظن عبدي بي" والآيات الكثيرة تقول أن الله يغفر الذنوب جميعاً، وأن رحمة الله وسعت كل شيء. أما هو فليس عنده من أقوال "ربه" أي من هذا. بل من أقوال بولس. لهذا فمن منظور كنسي -يركن إليه الكثير من النصارى لأن الكنيسة تخبرهم أنهم ما إن يموتوا حتى يجدوا الملكوت- فالمسلم عنده من الضمانات ما ليس لدى النصراني.

Christianity says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
God's standard is a standard of perfect obedience. And it says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." As I started to read the bible and learn more about Christianity and looked back at my life, I understood that I stood condemned as a sinner against God and I needed Christ's forgiveness.

خلط كالمعتاد. الأولى تقول بها اليهودية لا المسيحية. والثانية يقول بها بولس لا يسوع. فإن كان يسوع رب، والرب لا ينظر للخطيئة، فأيهما كاذب؟ من قال الأولى أم الثانية؟ أم تراه من "أوحى" لكليهما؟

I am not being punished for what Adam did btw. It says sin came into the world through one man. It started with Adam, but we have continued in Adams behavior. One might say it is in our genes passed on through generations, this propensity to rebel against God.

كلام مرسل معتاد بلا دليل واحد من كتابه. بل ويكذب كتابه. كتابه يقول أن الشيطان عصى قبل حواء ثم تبعها آدم، والكنيسة تقول آدم وحواء أولاً. من جديد، أيهما كاذب؟

You wrote (1- Please note that you build your confidence on Beliefs like the trinity, the original sin, and the salvation; none of which is clearly stated in the bible!)
Obviously this is one of those things that we'll keep on going back and forth with. Because indeed I build my confidence on these things and I find them clearly stated.

To me what Salvation conveys to me is that God is Just, Loving and Almighty.
Now salvation doesn't mean we live our lives doing whatever we want. Like I said Jesus is my LORD and Savior. He saves me from the punishment of sin, however in return I devote my life to following Him, doing those things as written in the bible and to become in character more like Him.
This renewed life in me shows proof of my genuine believe and salvation. Just like the resurrection showed that Christ was indeed sinless and that salvation is a reality for all of us.

أرى إحراجه في هذه النقطة التي يتهربون من إجابتها جميعاً: Does this mean that if I accept Jesus as my Lord as you say, but I commit sin after sin, of every available flavor, where am I going? Paradise with Jesus or Hell with Satan?

جزاكم الله كل خير، وبارك لكم في أوقاتكم.

**توحيد** · 30 يول, 2009, 11:28 م

حمدا لله على سلامتك اخي الحبيب ...
استلم عهدتك ... وعد كويس واتاكد ان مافيش حاجة ناقصة.
وأعانك الله ووفقك ويسر لك وسدد خطاك.

سأتابع متفرجاً، وربما أساهم برأي أو تعليق إن سمحت الظروف.

**الأمير الأحمر** · 30 يول, 2009, 11:46 م

ده كلام يا أستاذي؟ وهل يفتى ومالك في المدينة؟

أرجوا أن أثقل عليك لمزيد من الوقت، القليل فقط ، فأنا لم أعد تماماً بعد. ولولا علمي بإنشغالك أيضاً لما جرؤت على "إستلام عهدة" وأستاذ مثلك يتولى الرد. جزاك الله خيراً. إن شاء الله أعود قريباً، وأريحك مما أثقلت به عليك. وجزى الله الإخوة جميعاً كل خير. فما شاء الله العلم متوافر لدى كل من رد بقليل أو كثير. ولولا وحدة الأسلوب وإدارة دفة الحوار جهة محددة لكانت مشاركة الجميع أفضل.

والله من وراء القصد.

**توحيد** · 31 يول, 2009, 12:04 ص

لله الأمر من قبل ومن بعد ...
لكن لا تطل الغياب أعزك الله
فأنت الأستاذ في هذا المجال ولست انا ...

**الأمير الأحمر** · 31 يول, 2009, 12:23 ص

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة توحيد

لله الأمر من قبل ومن بعد ...
لكن لا تطل الغياب أعزك الله
فأنت الأستاذ في هذا المجال ولست انا ...

تواضع لا يصدر إلا عمن كان مثلك في المكانة والعلم أستاذنا. رفع الله قدرك.

إن شاء الله لن أطيل أخي في الله، وقد يكون سفر الأخت الفاضلة خيراً للجميع إن شاء الله.

**جوانا** · 13 أغس, 2009, 05:31 م

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
إخواني الكرام
أتمنى ان تكونوا بخير وعافيه
أعتذر عن غيابي كل هذه الفتره فقد طالت مدة سفري
وبأذن الله من اليوم نبداء في استكمال الحوار

قبل سفري ارسلت رساله الأخ توحيد الأخيره للقس الأمريكي

وقد كان رده الأتي

woah never replied got so busy!
First of all to me it is comforting to know that I KNOW I am saved and will be with God in heaven. It truly is a unique aspect of Christianity. vs. any other religion in that sense.
Personally I think I'd go crazy if I didn't have a measure to figure out if what I did / believed was good enough to end up with God in heaven.

YOu said
1-Salvation didn't change those genes.
2- God created those genes!, there is no way that human behavior cam as a surprise to him!
3- Sins are not a rebellion against God, they're merely a natural behavior of human beings, that God expects us to do from time to time, and taught us how to ask his forgiveness for them, and promised to grant this forgiveness to those how regret their sins.
While those who give away to sins, and regret non, do not deserve to be forgiven.

True salvation didn't change the genes, although sin does corrupt them continuously. Yes God created everything knowing that He'd have to give His one and only son as a sacrifice for our sins. In His love and to His glory He still went on with this plan.
God KNOWS we'll sin from time to time but he doesn't WANT us to sin. And so indeed when we repent and believe on Jesus we are forgiven.

I don't know if Islam is the same, if someone sins and repents and then is forgiven wouldn't that mean a follower of Islam should know if they will go to heaven or not?

The other question at the end.
OK, but mu question is "What if you didn't?"
What if you accepted Jesus as your Savior, yet kept sinning, will you still go to heaven?

After salvation one should desire to live a life radically different from before, a life that honors and follows God. it wont be perfect, struggle with temptation will continue and people will do bad things. However their desire is to do the right things that honor and glorify God. If that heart change is not within a person, then my conclusion is that most likely they never truly accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
And many many hypocrites abound out there that say they belief something and follow a religion but their behavior is far from it. (Not just in Christianity)

Now the whole believing vs. understanding etc.
It is God who gives us faith to believe. Sure we understand but that understanding will not be perfect at the time we believe. I learned so much more about Christianity after I believed, even though before I believed I already learned a lot and studied a lot.
I hope this is not blasphemy but I believe that for other religions as well believe will come before FULL UNDERSTANDING.
What made me believe? I read the bible and I understood and saw that I was a sinner a person not following God and that this whole world pretty much was like me and going right to hell. I understood that Jesus the son of God died for my sins so that I wont have to go to hell. I understood that God is always there and listens and answers my prayers. I understood that God is my dear close loving father and that as I accept his gift of salvation what he required of me was to love him, honor him and obey him.

That was enough for me to believe. And much more have i learned since then

**توحيد** · 14 أغس, 2009, 08:44 ص

أنا الآن على سفر ... ولن أتمكن من المتابعة بشكل إيجابي.
أرجو أن تكون مشاغل أخي الأمير الاحمر قد انتهت على خير، وأن يستأنف هو الحوار.

أو كحل بديل - مؤقت - أقترح إرسال هذه الرسالة ..

Dear sir,
there are many points in your last message that I wold like to comment on, however, I will not do this for now.
I will just ask you to read this book:

"http://www.islamtomorrow.com/books/true_message_of_jesus_christ/true_message_of_jesus.pdf"

which will give you a more comprehensive idea of how we - Muslims - see Jesus, and why it is too hard for us to accept the trinity, the idea of "son of God", and salvation, .... etc

I believe that that our discussion will be more fruitful after you've read that book.

**جوانا** · 14 أغس, 2009, 05:43 م

أشكرك أخ توحيد بارك الله في علمك ونفع بك الأسلام والمسلمين

بإنتظار الأخ الأمير الأحمر في إختيار أحد الإقتراحين اللذان طرحهما الأخ توحيد

شاكره لكم جميعا

**ياسر جبر** · 15 أغس, 2009, 02:43 ص

الأخت الفاضلة من نحاوره هو قس منصر , وسيطول الحوار بلا أي نتيجة

الحل أرى أن يكون

1- إلحاق الهزيمة به وبيان أدلة فساد معتقده وتحريف كتابه .
2- نحيله إلى كتاب للتعرييف بالإسلام ييقرأه , وهذا المجهود عندما يكون مع أشخاص عاديين توقعي أن يسلم معك الكثير
تجنبي الجدال , واختاري عامة الناس فهم أبسط واكثر تسليما للعقل والمنطق , ولكن مثل هذا الشخص فهو مجادل لا يستحق إلا أن نشعره بهوانه وهوان معتقده بهدوء

فاقترح الاتي :

[align=left]
Dear Sir

Our conversation started to contain many point which need books to explain , i will speak in brief

1- concerning the Salvation , and your question
Are u sure will go to Heaven
My Answer is , yes i am sure , because i have right information , and right promise
About u , i will not believe and u shoudn't believe that u will go to heaven because u got your information from wrong sources

Bible

which is corrupted

Our prophet said that 1400 years ago
Bible is corrupted
and the truth Came many centuries after what he said.
because he was inspired

He was known to other people , not like unknown ppl wrote in Bible
look in any encyclopedia for Mathew , John , Mark , ... etc .
Unknown
look for scripts..... original not fond !!
Look for the writer of script .... unknown !!
Look about the differences between scripts .... many ..

look for the statments foun in Bible , and wu wil know that is not God words .

u will know that the truth is Jesua is a great prophet and so is Muhamed .

And u will know that the story of first mistake is fake
And God never been in the ground to be punished and killed for an apple .

Awake friend .

Please read

1- http://www.islamtomorrow.com/books/t...e_of_jesus.pdf
2-
What Did Jesus Really Say ? - Table Of Contents

3- http://www.4shared.com/file/10294473..._in_brief.html

not like what written in bible like
Is that by inspiration friend ?

1-
Son 7:1 How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman.

Son 7:2 Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies.

Son 7:3 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins.

Son 7:4 Thy neck is as a tower of ivory; thine eyes like the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bathrabbim: thy nose is as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus.

Son 7:5 Thine head upon thee is like Carmel, and the hair of thine head like purple; the king is held in the galleries.

Son 7:6 How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights!

Son 7:7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.

Son 7:8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples;

Is that by inspiration friend ?

1- 1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. 26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. (KJV).

It's strange to write in a book supposed to be Inspiration " I don't have inspiration " or " I have no commandment of the Lord" or " I give my own opinion " or " I suppose that this is good".

2- In The message of Paul to Romans, even the writer of the message or the supposed writer wrote his salutes !!, are such salutes by inspiration of God or there are parts on the bible not by Inspiration?
Rom 16:22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.23 Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.

The writer wrote his salutes after fourteen verses of salutes said by Paul started by Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: and ended with Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

3- In the Second message of Paul to Timothy, Paul was asking for his forgotten coat !, was that by inspiration ??, can we consider such verses is God word ??

2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful in my ministry. 12 I have sent Tychicus to Ephesus. 13 When you come, bring the coat I left with Carpus in Troas, as well as the scrolls and especially the parchments.( ISV).

4- In The message of Paul to Romans, Paul said Rom 3:7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?( RSV).

It seems so strange that God words says through the lie the glory of God is abounded !

5- In the first message of Paul to Corinthians he said 1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.( KJV).

How can we consider that "I say not the Lord " is God words !!??, how can we consider such words is said by inspirations of God !!??.
In the same letter Paul said 1Co 7:40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

Who said his opinion and who thinks that is good !!??, Can we consider that such words are by inspiration of God??.

6- The Beginning of Luke Gospel which is:

Luk 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed. (KJV).

Where we can find that writings is by inspiration of God ? . Luke said he received the story from others, did his best in knowing the truth, thought that's good and write it to the most excellent Theophilus. !!

7- The Last example is from the Second Canonical books ( Apocrypha ) , where the Protestants removed them out of the bible in the sixteen century while Catholic and Orthodox still using them as a God words.

2Ma 15:38 And if I have done well, and as is fitting the story, it is that which I desired: but if slenderly and meanly, it is that which I could attain unto.

And in a previous verses he wrote :

2Ma 2:23 All these things, I say, being declared by Jason of Cyrene in five books, we will assay to abridge in one volume.

the writer said he had five books and he made them only one book or only one volume, and at the end of the story he said I made my best in fitting such story !!, we don't think that five books he was talking about or the final story he wrote is made by inspiration of God.

C- In addition to: according to the Britannica Encyclopedia and other sources as it will be declared in the same chapter " The first and second letter to Timothy and the letter to Titus that considered to be authored by Saint Paul, Most scholars believe that they are dated years after Saint Paul", So the testify that the bible is by inspiration of God is said by unknown author according to many Christian scholars.

Wish the Best to You and looking forward a nice discussion after you read .....

[/CENTER]

وتكون هذه الرسالة دائماً عندك لتكون كالمطرقة على رأس كل من يتطاول على الإسلام ويرفض العقل والمنطق .

وركزي على العامة فالخير فيهم , وأسلم معي العديد , لم يحتاجوا هذا الوقت وهذه الردود على الشبهات .
والحمد لله رب العالمين

**جوانا** · 16 أغس, 2009, 05:14 ص

الأستاذ ياسر جبر بارك الله فيك ارسلتك رسالتك واحتفظت بنسخه منها في جهازي

نعم كل ماقلته صحيحاً الجدال لافائده منه لكن نحن بلغناه دعوة الإسلام والتي امرنا الله بها سواء استجاب ام لم يستجيب وايضاُ صححنا له معلومات كانت خاطئه عنده عن الإسلام فلابد انه خرج وايضاً خرج كل من قراء الموضوع بفوائد وتبقى الهدايه اولاً واخيراُ من عند الله
كانت رسالتك هي مسك الختام لأني ايضاً كنت اود إنهاء الحوار فلا استطيع المشاركه طيلة شهر رمضان

فأحب ان اوصل الشكر لكل من ساهم في هذا الحوار الأخ الأمير الأحمر والأخ توحيد والأخ نور على نور بارك الله فيكم جميعاً اسأل الله ان لايحرمكم الأجر جميعاً

أختكم : جوانا

**أحمد قبلاوي** · 2 سبت, 2009, 12:47 ص

كل ماخطر في بالك فالله على خلاف ذالك

**صديقه** · 2 سبت, 2009, 02:03 ص

إلي كل المشاركين في هذا الموقع الجليل 00 احمد الله علي نعمة الأسلام00 لقد حلمت كثيرا بأن اجد من يحمي ويدافع عن الأسلام في هذا الزمن الذي نعرف جميعا قصد ونية القائمين علي تشكيل اخلاقياته ومبادئه وهويته00 ولا استطيع أن اصف مدي سعادتي لقبولي معكم00 أخوتي 00 لقد قرأت الانجيل أكثر من خمس مرات وفي كل مرة أعود إلي ما انزل الله باالحق القرآن الكريم لاجد في كل حرف نور وكل كلمة صدق وكل آية حق00 ويالا العجب ممن يؤمنون بقصص تحكي كل واحدة منها باكثر من طريقة وباكثر من مكان فأذا كان من عند الله لما وجدوا فيه اختلاف {أَفَلَمْ يَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَتَكُونَ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ يَعْقِلُونَ بِهَا أَوْ آذَانٌ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا فَإِنَّهَا لَا تَعْمَى الْأَبْصَارُ وَلَكِن تَعْمَى الْقُلُوبُ الَّتِي فِي الصُّدُورِ }الحج46

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الآن أحاور قس ( أمريكي ) أريد أن تشتركو معي في الإجابات ومساعدتي بسرعه

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