نور بارك الله فيك تم ارسال ردك

أخي نور ..
أرجو تزويدي بالحديث الذي استندت إليه في قولك:
Surprisingly, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said the same and more about himself! He said he was created before Adam

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

جزاك الله خيراً أستاذنا توحيد، و بارك الله في وقتك و علمك ..
جزاك الله خيراً أخي / نور على نور، و زادك الله فضلاً و علماً.

الأخت جوانا/
من الأفضل أن تكون الردود من شخص واحد لا من عدة أشخاص و ان تأخر الرد لمشاغل الحياة عند البعض أو لأي ظرف آخر .. فقد يكون الأستاذ توحيد راغباً في دفع الحديث باتجاه معين يرى بحكم خبرته أنه الأصلح للحوار، فيأتي رد آخر من أخ فاضل آخر لكنه يدفع الحوار في اتجاه معاكس .. هذا بالاضافة الى تباين الأسلوب الذي قد يلحظه محاورك النصراني ..
خاصة أنه انتدب للرد و متابعة الحوار معك اخوة و اساتذة كبار لهم خبرة و علم و تمرس بهذه الحوارات .. فلا تعجلي عليهم .

فعلاً معك حق فيما تقوله ربما اني استعجلت في هذا الأمر لأني لم اشاهد اي رد للأخ توحيد وقلت ربما انه يرى ان رد نور يكفي
هو الأن لم يرد

السلام عليكم الاخ توحيد و على الجميع
سنن الترمذى
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو همام الوليد بن شجاع بن الوليد البغدادي ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏الوليد بن مسلم ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الأوزاعي ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏يحيى بن أبي كثير ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي هريرة ‏ ‏قال ‏
‏قالوا يا رسول الله متى وجبت لك النبوة قال ‏ ‏وآدم ‏ ‏بين الروح والجسد ‏
‏قال ‏ ‏أبو عيسى ‏ ‏هذا ‏ ‏حديث حسن صحيح غريب ‏ ‏من حديث ‏ ‏أبي هريرة ‏ ‏لا نعرفه إلا من هذا الوجه ‏ ‏وفي ‏ ‏الباب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ميسرة الفجر

تحفة الأحوذي بشرح جامع الترمذي
قوله : ( هذا حديث حسن صحيح غريب إلخ ) ‏
ورواه ابن سعد وأبو نعيم في الحلية عن ميسرة الفخر وابن سعد عن ابن أبي الجدعاء والطبراني في الكبير عن ابن عباس بلفظ كنت نبيا وآدم بين الروح والجسد . كذا في الجامع الصغير . قال القاري في المرقاة : وقال ابن ربيع أخرجه أحمد والبخاري في تاريخه وصححه الحاكم , وروى أبو نعيم في الدلائل وغيره من حديث أبي هريرة مرفوعا : كنت أول النبيين في الخلق وآخرهم في البعث

كنت أول النبيين في الخلق وآخرهم في البعث
قال في المقاصد رواه أبو نعيم في الدلائل وابن أبي حاتم في تفسيره وابن لال ومن طريقة الديلمي عن أبي هريرة مرفوعا وله شاهد من حديث ميسرة الفخر
أخرجه أحمد والبخاري في تاريخه والبغوي وابن السكن وأبو نعيم في الحلية وصححه الحاكم بلفظ كنت نبيا وآدم بين الروح والجسد
وفي الترمذي وغيره عن أبي هريرة أنه قال للنبي صلى الله عليه و سلم متى كنت أو كتبت نبيا ؟ قال كنت نبيا وآدم بين الروح والجسد
وقال الترمذي حسن صحيح وصححه الحاكم أيضا . وفي لفظ وآدم منجدل ( 1 ) في طينته
وفي صحيحي ابن حبان والحاكم عن العرباض بن سارية مرفوعا إني عند الله لمكتوب خاتم النبيين وإن آدم لمنجدل في طينته
وكذا أخرجه أحمد والدارمي وأبو نعيم ورواه الطبراني عن ابن عباس قال قيل يا رسول الله متى كنت نبيا ؟ قال وآدم بين الروح والجسد ثم قال السخاوي كغيره






اتفق تماما مع ما قال الاخ عبد الله المصرى
اكتب تعليقاتى من باب ابداء الراءى ...كذلك كنت اظن انها عون للاخت جوانة كى تطعم بها الردود العلمية للاخ توحيد او الاخ الامير الاحمر, فهى تعليقات منطقية تثمر مع المراوغين من المسيحيين
اشعر انى تطفلت بدون قصد و ااسف على ذلك

خطأ! ما كان عليك الإسراع بإرسال الرد! على الأقل لو انتظرتي حتى يراجعه الأخ الفاضل توحيد، لأن فيه عبارات قاسية لا داعي لها.

والله اني نادمه
حتى هو لم يرد الى الأن

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

قدر الله وما شاء فعل، ولا داعي للندم ...
فربما كان في رد أخي الحبيب "نور على نور" من البركة أضعاف ما في ردودي أنا وأخي الامير الاحمر.
ولا نعلم لعل الله يجعل هذه الكلمات سببا في هدايته.
_____________

أعتذر للتأخير ... وهذا حالي عادة في عطلة نهاية الأسبوع لما يكون فيها من ارتباطات عائلية فسامحيني على التقصير أختي الفاضلة.
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بصفة عامة .. تكون الحوارات الثنائية اكثر فائدة، لانها تكون اكثر تركيزاً، ومن المهم في حالات الحوار بالمراسلة ان يتولى الصياغة، وإدارة الحوار شخص واحد، ولا مانع أن أن يساعده أكثر من شخص بالافكار والمعلومات.

عموماً ..
علينا ان ننتظر رد الأمريكي .. هداه الله.

أخي نور ...
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

لست متخصصاً في علوم الحديث ..
ولكن ما فهمته من الأحاديث التي سقتها هو أن اللفظ الذي صح به الحديث هو:
وأيضاً

وكلا اللفظين يحتمل الفهم بمعنى أن الله تعالى قدر لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يكون نبياً من بداية خلق البشر. وهذا هو الفهم الذي أرتاح له.

أما اللفظ الذي يوحي بخلق رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلك قبل سيدنا آدم عليه السلام وهو:
فقد روي مرفوعاً.

عموماً .. لست من أهل العلم بالحديث كما اسلفت ..
ولكني لا اعلم أن إحداً من علماء اهل السنة والجماعة قد قال بأن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قد خلق قبل آدم عليه السلام. وان من يقول بذلك هم الصوفية ومن غلا غلوهم.
فإن كان لديك دليل على خلاف ذلك .. فارجو موافاتي به ..
وعلى هذا الرابط: http://www.islam-qa.com/ar/ref/11452...AE%D9%84%D9%82
رد سريع على سؤال بهذا الخصوص لعله يعطيك فكرة عن موقف شيوخ أهل السنة والجماعة من هذه القضية.

وصل الرد


الأمريكي

Hi sorry for not responding right back, had a very busy few days as we organized and kicked off a week long community service and evangelism project this week.

I am only confused in your eyes because you do not accept what the Trinity explains. So in return I'd say you are confused because you can't accept the Trinitarian nature of our almighty God.

As for the prophet Muhammad saying the same thing about himself, could you tell me where in the Qu'ran it says these things, preferably in an English, Dutch or German translation (sorry I can't read its original language)

As far as 'They follow naught but doubt." Where does it say this?

Now you say I should reconsider before it is too late? Too late for what? To be reconciled to God, forgiven of my sins and spent my eternity with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit in Heaven?
If so what guarantees does the Qu'ran provide you that you will be with Allah for eternity?

Because Christ died for my sins and I've accepted Him as my Lord and Savior and in my life I see myself compelled to strive to follow God's commands and to love him with my all as well as my neighbor as myself, I KNOW I will be with God in heaven regardless of what will happen and regardless of when I die. So far to me no greater thing has appeared.

هذا هو اقتراحي للرد ...
فليتفضل من له ملاحظات من الإخوة بالتعليق، وإن لم توجد ملاحظات جوهرية لمدة 6 ساعات من وضع هذه المشاركة ... فلتتفضل الأخت الفاضلة بإرسال الرد.

Hi sorry for not responding right back, had a very busy few days as we organized and kicked off a week long community service and evangelism project this week.

No problem at all, I understand.

I am only confused in your eyes because you do not accept what the Trinity explains. So in return I'd say you are confused because you can't accept the Trinitarian nature of our almighty God.

Should I accept first, then understand later? shouldn't I understand what I'm going to believe in?

As for the prophet Muhammad saying the same thing about himself, could you tell me where in the Qu'ran it says these things, preferably in an English, Dutch or German translation (sorry I can't read its original language)

This is not mentioned in Quran, it was mentioned in "Hadith", and it's not a by any means a main element in Islamic believe. It was just my way to tell you that this statement "Before Abraham was, I AM." is not enough to build your faith on.
Also, the way I understand both statements is that both profits (may peace be upon them) state that they wear meant to be profits from the beginning of man kind; not that they've physically existed.

As far as 'They follow naught but doubt." Where does it say this?

This is a loos translation of a verse of Quran, heare: http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/6-116.html you will find multible transelation attempts of the same verse, yet please note that translations of the meanings of Quran are not recognized as "Quran" they are no more than a human attempt to deliver some of the meanings of the divine text to none Arabic speakers.

Now you say I should reconsider before it is too late? Too late for what? To be reconciled to God, forgiven of my sins and spent my eternity with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit in Heaven?
If so what guarantees does the Qu'ran provide you that you will be with Allah for eternity?

Because Christ died for my sins and I've accepted Him as my Lord and Savior and in my life I see myself compelled to strive to follow God's commands and to love him with my all as well as my neighbor as myself, I KNOW I will be with God in heaven regardless of what will happen and regardless of when I die. So far to me no greater thing has appeared.

1- Please note that you build your confidence on Beliefs like the trinity, the original sin, and the salvation; none of which is clearly stated in the bible!
2- Are you telling me that you are sure you will be with God in heaven regardless of what you do? even if you commit all sins?
3- When you study for an exam, or work hard on a project, what guarantees do you have that you will succeed?
From Islamic point of view, life is a big test for man kind, those who pass, goes to heaven, and those who fail ... goes to hell.
In Islam, Their are no short cuts, no predefined results, and no super natural solutions for the problem of "the original sin" as sin can't be Inherited.
In Islam each man is responsible for his own sins and not responsible for his father's, while in Christianity, God had to die to relief you from a sin you didn't commit, and he was not able to forgive, yet as a result of this event, you are free to sin as much as you like, as long as you accept Jesus as your savior.

Cold these be the teachings of a true, just, and all mighty God?

الأمريكي

Hi thanks for the additional info.

In Islam is there a good distinction by what would be accounted for as good and what as bad? Like if you were to keep track of the things you did in your life, could you say, right now I'm going to hell or right now I'm going to heaven?
Christianity says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
God's standard is a standard of perfect obedience. And it says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." As I started to read the bible and learn more about Christianity and looked back at my life, I understood that I stood condemned as a sinner against God and I needed Christ's forgiveness.
I am not being punished for what Adam did btw. It says sin came into the world through one man. It started with Adam, but we have continued in Adams behavior. One might say it is in our genes passed on through generations, this propensity to rebel against God.

You wrote (1- Please note that you build your confidence on Beliefs like the trinity, the original sin, and the salvation; none of which is clearly stated in the bible!)
Obviously this is one of those things that we'll keep on going back and forth with. Because indeed I build my confidence on these things and I find them clearly stated.

To me what Salvation conveys to me is that God is Just, Loving and Almighty.
Now salvation doesn't mean we live our lives doing whatever we want. Like I said Jesus is my LORD and Savior. He saves me from the punishment of sin, however in return I devote my life to following Him, doing those things as written in the bible and to become in character more like Him.
This renewed life in me shows proof of my genuine believe and salvation. Just like the resurrection showed that Christ was indeed sinless and that salvation is a reality for all of us.




الأخ الفاضل توحيد قد يتأخر نقل ردك لمدة ثلاث أيام لأني سأسافر واعود لأستكمال الحوار يوم الجمعه بأذن الله

بارك الله فيكم جميعاً

وفيك بارك الله أختنا الفاضلة.
سأكتب ما لدي الآن .. لعل ذلك يتيح الفرصة للإخوات للتعليق عليه، واقتراح ما يرونه من تعديلات.
ولا تنسي - جزاك الله خيراً - أن تبدأي رسالتك له بالاعتذار عن التأخير كما فعل هو في المرة السابقة.

In Islam is there a good distinction by what would be accounted for as good and what as bad? Like if you were to keep track of the things you did in your life, could you say, right now I'm going to hell or right now I'm going to heaven?

No man has the right to do that, no man can judge him self, or others, only GOD has that right.
Also, we - Muslims - believe that no man is capable of thanking GOD enough for his grace, thus the ONLY way to heaven is throw God's mercy.
All the good deeds we do are merely attempts to thank God for his grace, and qualify for his mercy. And we believe that God is Most Merciful.


I am not being punished for what Adam did btw. It says sin came into the world through one man. It started with Adam, but we have continued in Adams behavior. One might say it is in our genes passed on through generations, this propensity to rebel against God.

1-Salvation didn't change those genes.
2- God created those genes!, there is no way that human behavior cam as a surprise to him!
3- Sins are not a rebellion against God, they're merely a natural behavior of human beings, that God expects us to do from time to time, and taught us how to ask his forgiveness for them, and promised to grant this forgiveness to those how regret their sins.
While those who give away to sins, and regret non, do not deserve to be forgiven.

You wrote (1- Please note that you build your confidence on Beliefs like the trinity, the original sin, and the salvation; none of which is clearly stated in the bible!)
Obviously this is one of those things that we'll keep on going back and forth with. Because indeed I build my confidence on these things and I find them clearly stated.

You said before that one has to believe first, to be able to understand! so, you cannot claim that you believed because you ware convinced!
In fact, It looks to me that you are convinced, only, because you believe!


To me what Salvation conveys to me is that God is Just, Loving and Almighty.

In fact, the theory of sheds many doubts on these particular characteristics of God - from christian point of view...
Because a just God would not held people responsible for the sins of some one ells.
A Loving God would've forgiven his beloved creation without sacrificing his beloved son.
An almighty God would not have to create such a schema to get out of mess that he didn't expect to happen.

I do believe that God is Just, Loving and Almighty, and because I believe so, I can not accept the christian claims of "original sin" and Salvation.

Now salvation doesn't mean we live our lives doing whatever we want. Like I said Jesus is my LORD and Savior. He saves me from the punishment of sin, however in return I devote my life to following Him, doing those things as written in the bible and to become in character more like Him.

OK, but mu question is "What if you didn't?"
What if you accepted Jesus as your Savior, yet kept sinning, will you still go to heaven?