[quote=جوانا;167344]أنا أرسلت رد نور

جوانا

احببت ان ارد على هذا الكلام حتى و ان كان الحوار قد تخطاه:
الأمريكي


you are trying very hard to undermine Christianity. Sure the word and concept of trinity was intruduced late. But not the idea that God is ONE and that Jesus is GOD become man. Back in the first century already the first fathers of the church had to defend and confirm these things to ward off certain cults who did not believe that God became man. If you think about it even the canonical bible wasn't decided upon until a time after the Apostles were dead



You're the only one who's undermining Christianity here! I can't find further evidence on the unreliablity of the Christian faith other than the testimony of a Christian clergy, namely yourself, Sir! If you and all Christians find it ok to die and meet God with a belief inserted to His-supposed- Scripture and religion, you should keep in mind the possiblity that this may turn out false. A believer has to be sure. Christians no no thind as sure.

You conceded the human influence regarding the Trinity, but not that Jesus is God and God is Jesus in one. You must have strong proof from the Bible to say that. I haven't found it. Surprizingly, all I found was Jesus speaking of God in[glow=FFFF00] the second [/glow]and [glow=FFFF00]third persons [/glow]all the time; that is using: He/You........But NEVER in the[glow=FFFF00] first person [/glow](I). Wasn't Jesus confusingly unclear by doing this? Did he forget to tell humans that he is their God? He all the way long spoke of himself and God as separate completely different entities. This is chezophrenic God speaking to himself all the time as if he is somebody eles other than himself.

.
And then Christianity went through a completely [glow1=FFFF00]messed up[/glow1] period until the reformation.
God works to preserve his word and his people through all time, doesn't mean we humans get it right, right away. But through all this inevitably God's will is done.

It only means you have to be cautious when you give your mind to the beliefs resultant from a bloody [glow=FFFF00]messed up[/glow] period marked by prosecution of Jesus' beliefs.

And for as many sources that deny the trinity there will be as many sources that confirm it. If you look at Christianity as a religion, you almost have to admit it is the truth because there are indeed so many against it. Attacking it physically, spiritually and intellectually. This world that has rejected God, can't help but attack or run away when light shines into darkness.



Omit [glow1=FFFF00]Christianity[/glow1] and add[glow1=FFFF00] Islam [/glow1]to the sentence and it will remain true. The number of rejectors is not the kind of roof that saves men from eternal punishment.

I don't mean to sound too ehm megalomaniacal saying this, but its just a silly thought that came to my mind
You seem quite concerned about me as you share all these things with me. I appreciate it thanks! I'll remember you in my prayers as well.


And I will too, InshaAllah...

تم ارسال هذه الرساله

وتم الرد

الأمريكي

Hi there, true I didn't use a lot of Jesus' words. ( I did include the part from Isaiah about the virgin being with child and the child being Immanuel - God with us)

So here are some situations where Jesus points to himself as being equal with God.
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid Himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
I am here is the same way as in
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM' has sent me to you. "

Mark 2:5-7 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven". Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves "Why does this fellow talk like that? Hes blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

John 10:38 the Father and I are one.

John 14:9 "Dont you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

Matthew 28:17 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshipped Him.
Only God was worshipped by the Jews.

Hope that helps

نور بارك الله فيك على الرد
صحيح انها نقطة تجاوزناها لكني استفدت من ردك واستفاد الكثيرون شكرا لك

You didn't use ANY of Jesus' words where he says he was God in fact. So I think what I'm saying is valid then; Jesus never claimed to be God.

On the virgin part, there are several things to discuss. First, in the original manuscripts, it's Alma, which as you must know means "young girl" not a virgin. I'm saying this is a mistranslation. But again, that's not the issue. This is a prophecy that a young girl will bear a child. Where does it say that this child will be God? And while we're on the topic, it says that this child will be "called" Immanuel. was Jesus ever called Immanuel by anyone in the 27 books of the NT?

I will reply to them all -from my point of view, that is- but we're turning around the same point. How come God came to stay with us for 33 years, and never told us he was God? Wasn't that the reason -according to Christian doctrine- that God came down to earth? Shouldn't he have said it at least once in the 27 books? Also of course you know that there are many more verses in the bible were Jesus denies any divinity. For example "I of mine own self can do nothing", "All power is given unto me" and "I by the finger of God cast out devils".

I think this is reading into the text. But according to my limited knowledge, even the I Am of Exodus is very controvercial. The Hebrew goes as "Eheye Esher Eheye", so to speak, which would more accurately mean: "I Am whatever I am". Bearing this fact in mind, and reading things in context, that would mean that God was telling Moses that he doesn't have to tell the Israelites a name, not that His name is I Am, don't you think? To make it easier to understand, if you asked me if I'm enjoying this conversation and I replied saying "I am", would you think I'm claiming divinity?

True, but why are you stopping there? Doesn't Jesus explain what he said in the ver next verse by saying "{2:8} And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? {2:9} Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?"? Doesn't that mean he's telling them that -in a our modern terms- it's easier said than done?

I think you mean John 10:30. Are you telling me that Jesus is the Father? I think this is considered heretical in the Christian faith, am I right? But again, this is out of context. The story starts at John 10:22. I don't want to bore you by dropping the verses you know well here again, but Jesus is talking about Oneness in purpose. The Greek word used for "one" in these verses is "Hen". The very same "hen" used in John {17:22} "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: {17:23} I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

Of course he wasn't talking about the disciples being part of God too. So it can only mean onenness in purpose, right?

Again I think this is out of context. Jesus also told them in John "{6:46} Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. {6:47} Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.". So unless he was lying to them -which I'm sure he's not- the only way I can understand this is that he was saying that this is as close to seeing God as you'll get. Mind you he was seen by all sorts of non believers all through the four gospels, so he can't mean himself with these verses.

Again, "worship" here is a mistranslation. The closer translation is that they prostrated themselves in front of him. Something the Jews did commonly with Prophets, kings and Rabbis.

Look at me go rambling again. Please excuse me -and by all means correct any errors you see in what I wrote. But what I mostly want your confirmation on -or denial thereof- that Jesus never once said he was God or asked people to whorship him. Is this true?

Thanks a lot. You've been very generous.

جزاك الله كل خير أختي الكريمة.

أخي الأمير الأحمر وصل الرد

الأمريكي

Hi you make points over which many scholars have gone back and forth for years, centuries .. millenia.
I don't know Hebrew nor Aramaic nor Greek.
I read what I can, I understand what I can. But (and you can make all the fun in the world of me if you like) there comes a point where even the brightest of scholar will have to make a stance of Faith. Yes Faith. Not that it is blind faith. We look at what we have, we look at the evidence provided, we look at life itself and see if it all is in agreement with one another and we make that decision.
Did Jesus die for my sins and resurrect on the third day?
If yes then it will naturally follow that Jesus is God and yet we understand he's distinct from God which leads to the trinity.

Why do I say that Jesus must be God if he died for our sins?
Since all have sinned, we all do wrong, we all rebel and fail to follow God Perfectly. We all stand condemned. We face eternal separation from God in heaven and will suffer in hell for all eternity. With the way we are, nothing we can do will be enough to get us back to heaven. Not serving, not worshipping, not sacrificing, because all we are doing is bringing imperfect things to God.
However God so loved the world! He wants us to be with Him for all eternity. So He Himself comes down to earth to live a perfect life, incarnated as man, a perfect life, dying innocent on the cross.
Now if Jesus was a single man, then His sacrifice would only suffice for another single person. But Jesus is God, creator of all things and beyond. A suitable sacrifice for all who are willing to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

طيب الحمد لله أختي الكريمة. هو بهذا قد إقتنع بفضل الله أنه لا يجد قولاً لعيسى عليه السلام يقول بمثل هذا. ويعرف بفضل الله أن ما يؤمن به لا أساس له في كتابه.

كنت أنوي الإنتقال إلى مصداقية الكتاب، لكن هذا وقت رائع لدعوته للإسلام إن شاء الله. هو قد أعلن أن إيمانه لا ينبني إلا على العاطفة وفكر الكنيسة، لهذا لا داعي لسرد المزيد من الأدلة.

سأعد له إن شاء الله مدخلاً لعيسى المسلم في كتابه، ثم أرجوا أحد أساتذتنا الكرام للإنتقال به بعد ذلك إلى الحديث عن الإسلام. فهم بفضل الله أساتذة لي جميعهم.

ملاحظة لإخوتي المسلمين، التبسيط يا إخوتي وعدم الإنجراف وراء تفريعاتهم التي لا تنتهي بغير أدلة. هذا درس أتعلمه كل يوم. علينا أولاً إقامة الحجة عليهم، ثم أن نبين لهم بعد ذلك وكل شيء بالدليل.

والله المستعان.

Thanks a lot for your reply. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to address my questions.

Yes, I understand of course. Not everyone in the world is supposed to understand all languages. The problem with the manuscripts is that they are in dead languages anyway, so the job is never easy. This actually was very strange to me as I was studying Xianity. How would a book of God be meant to the whole universe till the end of time, if the original languages we have for it -well not even the original, but the first translations anyway- are in dead languages. There just had to be so many misunderstandings due to that.

But an important point here -for a Christian- is that the bible was not written in English. So you can't just say "I read what I can", because then you'll fall into the dilemma of which version of the bible should you read. The RSV that says there is no trinity or the KJV which says there is -as one of a dozen examples of course.

Mock you? For having faith? I raise my hat for you -if I wore one . Faith is essential and no believer could do with out. After proper study of course.

So what you're saying is, we decide what God is based on our understanding? But doesn't that mean the God changes according to how our understanding of him changes as well? Is that really what Jesus told us?

Why are you taking this for granted? Did Jesus say he was going to die for our sins and rise on the third day? I never saw any such thing said by him in the bible. Is there? I mean equivocal words not someone's interpretation? If so, please point me towards them. In fact, the answer to your question above is "No, he didn't", and therefore all the rest would be built on teachings other than those of Jesus.

Not that the answer is yes, but your logic still escapes me. Why can't he just be a messenger? Tens of messengers of God lost their lives for mankind, so why would Jeuss be any different?

OK, I mean this in the sweetest way possible, so please take it as I mean it. Aren't you now telling me that Xianity needs a lot of interpolation on our side? You're saying that Jesus was here, with us on earth, for 33 full years to let us know that he was God. How would he not say that even once? In fact how would he deny that many times? He seems to be going out of his way in the bible to tell us he's not God. One example is when he scorned the Jew who called him good, and told him there was none good but God. That sounds like a pretty clear denial of divinity to me, don't you think?

And if we are "deciding" for our selves who or what God is, why didn't we say that it's not a trinity but rather a Fifteenity -if there is such a term? After all, Jesus said everything was given unto him by God, then he said he's giving everything to the 12 disciples.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you how many verses in the bible refute everything above. Let me just say that if that had been the case, how did people before Jesus survive? I didn't find any reference to him in the entire OT or even the Jewish traditions, so no one knew he was coming to believe in him. Did everyone just go to hell?

During my search for Jesus, I found that the only people truely following his teachings were Muslims! Sounds weird? The only people who pray in the same way Jesus prayed in the bible were the Muslims. Christians don't. The only people who fast in the same manner Jesus did are the Muslims -total prohibition of food and water. The only people who bid peace in the same manner as Jesus did are the Muslims. The only people who believe in Jesus, his miraculous birth, his ascenssion and his second coming are the Muslims.

In fact, Muslims say Jesus was a Muslim. They revere him so much and know for a fact that he was not God, but one of God's mightiest messengers. Just as he himself said in the bible a dozen times. In fact, didn't that verse ever speak to you: And this is life eternal; that they might know Thee, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. Doesn't this mean anything? Before raising Lazares, the speach Jesus gave in front of the people, talking to God and saying that it is God who will raise Lazares. Doesn't that say anything?

I can go on forever of course, but I wanted to know what you think of what I wrote first.

Again, thank you for taking the time is just not enough.

الأمريكي

I'll say it up front without Faith you wont believe. You wont believe in the Muslim faith, you wont believe in the Jewish faith, you wont believe in the Christian faith.
Right away we start with a hurdle of Creation vs. Evolution. Something that neither can be proved nor disproved. Right there we take a step of faith.
However that doesn't mean I arbitrarily say Christianity is it for me and each person thereafter decides what their faith tells them. Like I already said it isn't a blind faith. I read the bible, I look at this world. To me it all fits. I pray to God I observe my life I see His work it all fits.

How did people before Christ survive .. how do people out in the whole wide world survive ...

The bible says: Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
It means we can understand there is a God in this world just by looking around and at ourselves and seeing his awesome creation.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

People from before looked and understood that salvation was coming and put their hope in that which was still unseen.

Did Jesus say he was going to die and be resurrected? I think so at least it is recorded in the bible.
Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
Luke 9:21 Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. 22 And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."
Luke 18:31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. 33 On the third day he will rise again."
There are a few more.

Yes I understand in Islam Jesus is revered as a very important prophet from the Lord. As for truly following Jesus, I believe it comes down to two things. 1 Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength. 2 Love your neighbor as yourself. I fast, but not as Jesus did. I honestly do not belief that I should do it the way Jesus did. The one single recorded time that Jesus fasted was for 40 days and 40 nights going without food or water in the desert. But that was a special leading from God to prepare him for the ministry that was before him. His other mentionings of fasting all refer to the traditional Jewish ways of fasting.
As for the way Jesus bid peace to people, yep I don't do that either. But Jesus offers a much greater peace then what Islam ascribes to him. Jesus offers eternal peace with God through his sacrifice.
This of course is the major difference. Prophet of the Lord vs. Son of God savior of the world and all mankind.

I think it is wonderful that Islam knows so much about Jesus and regards him so highly, but please consider him as Lord and Savior. The true, one and only way to get to heaven and have eternal life.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Thanks again for your reply.

It seems obvious to me that you're now giving me the church doctrine, not what Jesus said. It is very strange because you end up by saying that I should beleive in Jesus! But what I'm telling you is I DO believe in Jesus. That is why I believe what Jesus said. I think what you mean to say is: "believe what I tell you about Jesus", which of course is a totally different thing. The logic really escapes me. You tell me that I should believe in Jesus, but not as he says but as the church says. How can I do that if what Jesus says and what the church says is at opposite ends all the way?

I do have faith -not that evolutionism or creationism is an issue to anyone who has common sense- but because If I know the world has a creator, I must immediately seek Him. And I expect him to reach out for me too. That's what Jesus tells me. But all I can see in your replies are reading between the lines. I don't blame you for that of course, I know this is the entire church's doctrine throughout the centuries because the bible doesn't really say any such thing coming from Jesus. I understand that due to the discrepencies they had to read between the lines, trying to come up with a meaning to it all. But what assures me even more that Jesus is by no means God -other than his own words- is that God has declared Himself in the clearest manner possible in the OT as well as in the Quran.

In the OT, God says "I am God, and there is no one else". "I am God, and there's none but me", etc... In the Quran, again He declares Himself as clearly as it gets: "I am Allah, there is no God but me, so worship Me and conduct prayers in my remembrance". "Allah there is no god but Him, the Living, the Sustainer" and many more.

So how is that compared to "If you have seen me you have seen the father", then just a few verses later "No one has seen the father", or "Why callest thou me good, there is none good but God"? Unless Jesus was a lier -which he by no means is- He is denying any sort of divinity.

I've enjoyed this part of our conversation very much, and thank you for being honest enough to tell me there is no where in the bible where Jesus equivocally claims divinity. You've really put my mind at ease on that part. It's always good to get assurance.

Now I want your opinion about an alternative story. Would you please comment on this to me?

http://tk.alshoura.org/index.php/topic,151.0.html

I think it will take you about 5 minutes to read and I'm really interested to know how you see this in the light of Jesus's words in the bible.

Thanks again. May God guide us both to His true path.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

جزاك الله كل خير أخي في الله. ما أفعل إلا عرض الحقائق.

دعواتكم له أخي أن يهديه الله.

والله من وراء القصد، والله المستعان.

[quote=نور على نور;167567]

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة جوانا

أنا أرسلت رد نور

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

جزاك الله كل خير أختي الكريمة، وأعتذر عن عدم الرد على مشاركتك القيمة سابقاً لإنشغالي الشديد.

كلامك مضبوط أختي، وهو رد في محله، لكن فقط في المناظرات. والمناظرة غير الحوار. فالمناظرة يتابعها الكثيرون وتستلزم أن تكون الردود حاسمة بلا مجال للأخذ والرد. هذا لكي يفهم المستمع -أو القارئ- أن الإجابة قاطعة ولا رد لها عندهم إلا بتغيير النصوص وليِّ عنقها ليخرجوا منها بمعنى غير الواضح الصريح وفقط ليؤيدوا وجهة نظر الكنيسة ولو على حساب الكتاب. هذا يكشف الحق للنصراني المتابع فيعمل عقله -طبعاً إن شاء الله له الهداية.

لكن بما أن هذا حوار بين أختنا وواحد فقط -سواء أكان قساً أو غيره- ولا يتابعه أحد فيما أفهم، فنرجوا الله أن يهديه ونأخذه بالرفق قدر المستطاع، لعل الله يجعلنا سبباً لهدايته. الإسلام يأمر بالسلام -وهو الهدوء في هذه الحالة- كي لا تأخذه العزة بالإثم فيرفض الحق عناداً وكبراً. لا يعني هذا ألا نعرض الحق كاملاً، لكن المؤمن كيِّس فطِن. فطريقة العرض مهمة بقدر المعلومة نفسها. وعلينا أن نذكر أنفسنا بالهدف دائماً: الدعوة إلا الله، لا شيء آخر.

هذا طبعاً رأيي وهي الطريقة التي أتبعها. فهو ليس ملزماً لك ولا لأحد. إنما نتشارك الخبرات للوصول للأفضل إن شاء الله.

والله من وراء القصد.

أخي الأمير الأحمر وصل الرد وكان سريعاً وتبقى الهدايه من اللهالأمريكيHi reemyi, we are all responsible for our own decision as to believing in Jesus or not as either a prophet or savior. I know you keep stating things to point out that whatever I point to in the bible doesn't indicate that Jesus is God. To me it points out that Jesus is God. But it isn't something I feel we need to argue back and forth over. You have way more information then me, so I think it should be more obvious to you then me that Jesus is indeed the son of God and equal to God. How very intersting it is to look at a verse and see something completely different. I read the verse "why do you call me good because only God is good" as a statement that challenges the man (who wants to know how to attain eternal life) to really think a bit more about who Jesus truly is. Because he is indeed God! (While you read into it it that Jesus is saying oh no, I'm not God). I went to the website, it actually is something I'm familiar with although the PBUH is new I only knew Issah as a name used for Jesus. It is the thin line of faith that separates the two of us in our opinion on Jesus being a prophet or God. Anyways I've talked a lot to you about Jesus and you feel very comfortable with your faith in Allah, I do feel you are missing out though. Certainly God, Yahweh, Allah said He is ONE and that is exactly what Christians belief as well. One might look at Jesus and the Holy Spirit being equal to God and using the Trinity as a 'crutch' or 'ill devised construct' to still have God being ONE. But it rather a beautiful inspiring truth that shows how God is completely sovereign and self-sufficient with no need for His creation but yet with a great love for His creation, who desires to have His creation come and worship Him and spent time with Him as a privilige granted by His love and mercy through Jesus Christ's death on the cross for us. BTW you say I am repeating church doctrine ... to me that is a good thing, because well I am a Christian and I do very sincerely, truly and honestly believe those things. Have a blessed day! and may Peace be with you.

الرد بصوره أوضح ( أتمنى حذف الرد السابق ) أني لم أتمكن من التعديل


أخي الأمير الأحمر وصل الرد وكان سريعاً وتبقى الهدايه من عند الله




الأمريكي

Hi , we are all responsible for our own decision as to believing in Jesus or not as either a prophet or savior.
I know you keep stating things to point out that whatever I point to in the bible doesn't indicate that Jesus is God. To me it points out that Jesus is God.
But it isn't something I feel we need to argue back and forth over. You have way more information then me, so I think it should be more obvious to you then me that Jesus is indeed the son of God and equal to God.
How very intersting it is to look at a verse and see something completely different.
I read the verse "why do you call me good because only God is good" as a statement that challenges the man (who wants to know how to attain eternal life) to really think a bit more about who Jesus truly is. Because he is indeed God! (While you read into it it that Jesus is saying oh no, I'm not God).
I went to the website, it actually is something I'm familiar with although the PBUH is new I only knew Issah as a name used for Jesus.
It is the thin line of faith that separates the two of us in our opinion on Jesus being a prophet or God.
Anyways I've talked a lot to you about Jesus and you feel very comfortable with your faith in Allah, I do feel you are missing out though. Certainly God, Yahweh, Allah said He is ONE and that is exactly what Christians belief as well. One might look at Jesus and the Holy Spirit being equal to God and using the Trinity as a 'crutch' or 'ill devised construct' to still have God being ONE. But it rather a beautiful inspiring truth that shows how God is completely sovereign and self-sufficient with no need for His creation but yet with a great love for His creation, who desires to have His creation come and worship Him and spent time with Him as a privilige granted by His love and mercy through Jesus Christ's death on the cross for us.

BTW you say I am repeating church doctrine ... to me that is a good thing, because well I am a Christian and I do very sincerely, truly and honestly believe those things.

Have a blessed day! and may Peace be with you.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

أخي الأمير الاحمر مشغول قليلا ..
وقد يتغيب لعدة ايام، وقد طلب من المشرفين متابعة هذا الموضوع أثناء غيابه ...


للأسف لم أجد الوقت الكافي لقراءة الحوار من بدايته، ولم أقرأ إلا الرسالة الأخيرة .. وبالتالي أرجو مراجعة ردي التالي في سياق الحوار ككل، فإن كان مناسباً .. فبها ونعم، وإن لم يكن كذلك .. أرجو الإفادة، وسأحاول قراءة الموضوع بمزيد من التفصيل.


بصفة عامة، ما فهمته من المشاركة الاخيرة للمحاور النصراني هو أنه يحاول إنهاء الحوار بطريقة "كل واحد حر فيما يعتقده" ربما لانه لا يرى لنفسه فرصة لإقتاعك، ولا يريد أن يقتنع هو بكلامك ...


لذلك تعمدت ان يكون الرد حاداً قليلاً .. بهدف استفزازه للدفاع عما يؤمن به ... أو دفعه للتساؤل، ومحاولة البحث عن رد ... فربما إن أعجزه الرد ... أعاد النظر مرة اخرى فيما يعتبره من المسلمات.


والهادي هو الله.








Sir,
For me, the most important statement in your last message is this sentence: "I know you keep stating things to point out that whatever I point to in the bible doesn't indicate that Jesus is God."
Which actually points out a very important fact! ..

Don't you notice that the bible doesn't include ANY CLEAR statement that stats the Divinity of Jesus - may peace be up-on him -?
an by Clear Statement I mean one that is not controversial; a statement that I can not argue about what it means without being loafed at.


I can never be convinced that God is too shy, or too modest, to declare his divinity


I don't know of any other religion where "God" fails to declare to his followers, very clearly, that he created them!