جزاكم الله خير يا اخواني ..

و اسأل الله ان يهدي الجميع الى الطريق الصحيح ..

أخي الفاضل ( توحيد ) بارك الله فيك
هذا الحوار اشترك فيه اكثر من شخص وكان الأمير الأحمر قد ساهم بردود عديده كانت هي الأبرز في الحوار لبساطتها
وله العذر في غيابه واسأل الله ان يجزيه خير الجزاء
اعلم اني اتعبتكم كثيرا في هذا الحوار
فلو كنت امتلك نصف علمكم لأكملت الحوار بنفسي لكن انتم اعلم مني بكثير
هذا الأمريكي توصلنا معه بأنه لايوجد في الكتاب المقدس ايه واحده قال فيها يسوع اعبدوني او انا إله
وقد اعترف هو بذلك عندما ناقشه الأخ الأمير الأحمر في هذا الأمر
لكن هو متمسك بهذا الأعتقاد !!
يأخ توحيد انا ارسلت ردك

وجاء جوابه

الأمريكي

To me it is clear. I stated a few cases, however you view them differently. So then we are at a stalemate right there.
I respect your views on these scriptures and your interpretation and it really isn't in my nature to try to dissuade you or prove you wrong in them.
But I used those scriptures because to me they do clearly point out that Jesus is God. If you want I could try to elaborate perhaps a little more on a few that I listed.

First ....
We need to agree that any one how is looking for an evidence for Jesus divinity in the bible has to "read between the liens", because their is no strait foreword deceleration of him being a God.
Do you agree with me on this?

الأمريكي

Certainly Jesus didn't come out and say.
I'm the Lord your God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
But he did say things that to me show in a very straight forward way that He is God.
Like "Your sins are forgiven" like "Before Abraham was I am"
I know you posted your issues with these two scriptures, but if you want I can elaborate on them.

.wysiwyg { FONT: bold 12pt Arial; BACKGROUND: #cdd7b2; COLOR: #000000 } P { MARGIN: 0px } .inlineimg { VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle } I don't think that arguing about the interpretation of these verses will convince either of us,debates over what they mean are all over the internet, yet Christians still believe them to be a prof, while every one ells fail to see that!


My point is ...
Why wold the trow all powerful God sent controversial, arguable, messages to believers? What on earth brevets him from coming out strait forward and stating that he is God?


Specially when that is exactly what he did in the old testament !!

الأمريكي

Why are there so many people that call creation into question?
The fact that we humans are sinful and have turned away from God has given rise to all these things.
And so the truth has become muddled because our hearts are not with God and not whole heartedly following after him.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
أرجو التفضل بالمراجعة وتصحيح الأخطاء الإملائية إن أمكن.

وجزاكم الله خيرا

Sir,
I'm not sure if you missed my point, or you chose to ignore it.
I'm not saying "If there is God, why don't he make every one believe in him?"
No ..
What I'm saying is "If Jesus is God .. Why didn't he say so?"
Why do we have to dig into his words looking for prof? or making one up?

In the old testament, and in Quran, the all mighty God came out very clearly ordering every one to worship him.
Even the new testament is full of clear scriptures that stats the divinity of God (the father), yet there is not a single CLEAR statement of Jesus' divinity, or the trinity !!!

الأمريكي

Simpy put to me when I read it, it is crystal clear. Jesus is God.
I mentioned several passages. You call it digging, to me it is obvious.
When Jesus said, "Son your sins are forgiven." he took a stance.
1. I'm a Liar or
2. I'm mad or
3. I'm God
Healing the man and making him walk again is proof He is God.
Simple enough to me.

1- your breasts say the exact same phrase to believers after confessing their sins, dose this make them gods?
2- Did he say "I forgive your sins" or "your sins are forgiven"?
3- God supported all his messengers with miracles, healing the man was a miracle of a prophet.

الأمريكي


I think you mean priest in verse 1.
However the difference. When Jesus said it, the religious scholars of those days thought in their minds - How can Jesus say that? Only God can forgive sins. It shows that Jesus indeed meant: "I Jesus, forgive your sins." or perhaps it means "I Jesus, guarantee you that your sins are forgiven." Even in the 2nd case it would mean Jesus has the ability to forgive sins.
Certainly God supports his messengers, so yes Jesus could've been a prophet. But wouldn't God support his own son? Were you a father would you support a friend more or a son more?

انا لا افضل الحوار مع القساوسه والرهبان دع ذلك لاصحاب الاختصاص من العلماء الكبار

yes, I mean "priests", sorry for the spelling mistake, English is not my native language as you know.


you say:

"
However the difference. When Jesus said it, the religious scholars of those days thought in their minds - How can Jesus say that? Only God can forgive sins. It shows that Jesus indeed meant: "I Jesus, forgive your sins." or perhaps it means "I Jesus, guarantee you that your sins are forgiven." Even in the 2nd case it would mean Jesus has the ability to forgive sins.
Certainly God supports his messengers, so yes Jesus could've been a prophet. But wouldn't God support his own son?
"

If you read your last answer carefully, you will find out that it proves my point:

"
In the old testament, and in Quran, the all mighty God came out very clearly ordering every one to worship him.
Even the new testament is full of clear scriptures that stat the divinity of God (the father), yet it doesn't contain a single CLEAR statement of Jesus' divinity, or the trinity
"

and to answer your question:
" But wouldn't God support his own son? Were you a father would you support a friend more or a son more?"

my answer is:
The true son of God - if exists - will not NEED any support from his father, as he SHOULD BE self sustained. !!

If you look carefully into the Bible you will notice that Jesus never claimed that the miracles he made ware his own, he always referred them to GOD, not to him self.

الأمريكي

You say: If you read your last answer carefully, you will find out that it proves my point:
But it doesn't at all I'm sorry. Jesus proofs his ability to forgive sins by also healing the man physically. By doing this, Jesus shows that what He says is true. I.E. Him forgiving the man's sins is true and Him telling the man to walk is true.

Jesus indeed shows that through God we can all do anything God calls us to do. That doesn't in anyway disprove that Jesus isn't God. It just points again to the distinct roles God has taken on to help us in our lives. God the father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I know you'll again say this proves that Jesus isn't God. Anyways this is where again the Trinity comes in.

I'm not trying to prove that Jesus is not God!
I'm asking you to provide a clear none disputable prove from the bible that he is.

One as clear as "I'm the Lord your God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

Or: "I, am Allah, There is no God save Me. So serve Me and establish worship for My remembrance."

الأمريكي

The way I've put it is as clear as I see it and can present it.
Why doesn't Jesus say "I'm the Lord your God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."? Because that is not his ROLE in the Trinity. He is God the Son not God the Father.
He does say "Before Abraham was, I AM." and the crowed wanted to stone him for identifying himself as God. (You say that I am interpreting the translation wrong and that this I AM means something more common, but the fact remains they wanted to stone him for identifying himself as God.)