tell him what did it actually mean that a God is a father of a nother God , what is the concept of fatherhood here ? as for human beings the word father means someone the son had recieved from him half the chromosomes in his body , an arrangement necessary to keep the human race, because life is so limited and short , the father must have been existing many years before his son < father hood and sonhood in this world is a sign of uncompleteness of creatures < the son needs the care of his father while young and the father needs his son care when old !!! what about this in the world of Gods!!! < it seems that no one single resemblance to that of human !they claim that both father and son are eternal < and of course the matter of chromosomes is not aplicable here !!! so tell him what exactly the concept of fatherhood here , if the relation is totally different from that in the world of living cratures on earth why they call it a father and a son , when some one gives an unlnown relation between 2 things the same name of a known one there must be a great degree of likness between the two relations , so in what way the relation between the Christ and father resemble that between a human father and his son ?

2- ask him who of the two created this world ? who decides what happens to every creature ? have father and son one will or two if onewill how they are two and if every one has a separet will how can they act together ? if they are contrdicting every thing is distroyed !!! and if are compatible there must be a greter power than each of them to achieve this compatibility and any way each will can never be absolute !!! and this is not a character of a God !!

أختي الكريمة، إقرئي رسالتي الأولى. وقومي بالتسجيل في المنتدى أنت نفسك لتحاوريه وتتابعي الحوار معنا إن شاء الله.

Tell him that The Trinity is incomprehensible because it is not part of the revelation of God to His people. A revelation is an opening up, an uncovering. How can the Trinity be a revelation when the most learned of biblical scholars write that it is incomprehensible and unexplainable? That is double-talk, and it directly conflicts with the Bible's testimony

و هذا معنى بعض الكلمات الموضحة باللون الأحمر:

Hypostasis's تعنى أقنوم و كل من الآب و الابن و الروح القدس هو أقنوم فى حد ذاته

incarnation و تعنى التجسد اى ان الرب تجسد فى صورة انسان و هو يسوع

Ascension و تعنى صعود المسيح الى السماء بعد قيامته ب 40 يوم

initial sinو تعنى الخطيئة الاصلية التى ارتكبها آدم فى حق الرب

أخواني أشكركم على ردودكم الهادفه والقيمه أسأل الله ان لايحرمكم الأجر

أخي الأمير الأحمر عفوا أنا لم أنتبه للمنتدى الدعوي في ردك السابق
أشكرك لقد أرسلت الرد بالإضافه الى دعوته للمنتدى الأنجليزي
جزاك الله خير وبارك الله فيك

أنا أرسلت رد نور

جوانا


Let's not water down already existent facts. The unexplicablity of the Trinity has been subject to constant debating. If you claim that you can simply understand how three are one and one is three, renound theologians before you were severely troubled by this most unlogical mathematical equasion. Some examples:


"The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind; but he who would deny the Trinity will lose his soul."
(From A Handbook of Christian Truth by Harold Lindsell and Charles Woodbridge, pp. 51-52)

This doctrine did not come into the church easily, but rather through a great deal of dispute. It was first introduced at the Council of Nicea in AD</SPAN> 325, presided over by the Roman Emperor Constantine, but it did not become firmly entrenched within the Catholic Church until the Council of Chalcedon in AD</SPAN> 451.

"One does not find in the NT the trinitarian paradox of the coexistence of the Father, Son, and Spirit within a divine unity, the mystery of the three in one, yet one does find there the data that serve as the foundation of this later dogmatic formulation." [The Anchor Bible Dictionary, "God (NT)," p. 1055]


The answer is that Trinitarians give is that it was there all along, but it was not until the fourth century that people discovered it. How preposterous! It is as if Jesus whispered to His closest associates, saying, "Do not tell anybody about this directly but hide it in what you write." It took more than three hundred years to discover the central doctrine of the "Christian church"?









Finally ask him, please tell me how to understand this unsolvable equasion without introducing the naive christian cliche s of the egg and the sun as examples.





الأمريكي


you are trying very hard to undermine Christianity. Sure the word and concept of trinity was intruduced late. But not the idea that God is ONE and that Jesus is GOD become man. Back in the first century already the first fathers of the church had to defend and confirm these things to ward off certain cults who did not believe that God became man. If you think about it even the canonical bible wasn't decided upon until a time after the Apostles were dead.
And then Christianity went through a completely messed up period until the reformation.
God works to preserve his word and his people through all time, doesn't mean we humans get it right, right away. But through all this inevitably God's will is done.
And for as many sources that deny the trinity there will be as many sources that confirm it. If you look at Christianity as a religion, you almost have to admit it is the truth because there are indeed so many against it. Attacking it physically, spiritually and intellectually. This world that has rejected God, can't help but attack or run away when light shines into darkness.
I don't mean to sound too ehm megalomaniacal saying this, but its just a silly thought that came to my mind
You seem quite concerned about me as you share all these things with me. I appreciate it thanks! I'll remember you in my prayers as well.






بإنتظاركم

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

أختي الكريمة، أنت تفقدينه ويدخل الآن في مرحلة العناد. وكل هذا بسبب التطويل كما أخبرتك سابقاً.

بسطي الأمور. التنقل من موضوع لآخر دون الوصول لنقطة حاسمة في كل موضوع غير سليم. كما أخبرك فهو الآن يظن أن هدفك الوحيد هو التقليل من شأن ديانته. وقد قال لك بالذوق، فلنتوقف عن الحوار.

مارأيك أخي هل ارسل له رساله أخيره وأخبره بأنها الأخيره كي أنهي الحوار
وعلى ماذا تشتمل ؟
أرسل رساله تعريفيه بالإسلام ام ماذا
ما رأيك ؟

لا أختي، بارك الله فيك. لا أرى إنهاء الحوار. أرى تحديده. يمكنك إرسال شيء من هذا القبيل (إن رأيت في ذلك صالح):

I'm really trying to understand where the concepts come from. It seems that we've diversified the topic so much that I'm not benifiting from your knowledge, which I don't want to miss. Can we take it one step at the time for both our sakes? I think we need to approach the Christian doctrine from its roots. I've read the bible and so far I can't figure out how Jesus turned from "man" to "god". Would you care to elaborate on that for me?

P.S. Did you visit the site I sent you earlier?

ولندعوا الله له بالهداية قبل كل شيء، فهو ولي ذلك والقادر عليه.

والله المستعان.

تم ارسال الرساله بارك الله فيك بإنتظار الرد

الأمريكي

Good question how did Jesus turn from 'man' to 'God'
Actually Jesus was always God he didn't turn into God.
Jesus who is God humbled himself to take on the form of man.
How it plays itself out of course is that the Holy Spirit came over Mary and she became pregnant.
And so when born Jesus was both God and Man. Fully God, Fully Man but Jesus choose to live part of his life as a man, experiencing everything we experience with the exception that where we fell short in following God, Jesus remained perfect.


I am sorry but I haven't visited the site yet


أخي الأمير الأحمر هو من الواضح انه يريد ان يبقى النقاش هكذا على الرسائل فقط لأني ارسلت فيديوهات ليوسف استس ويقول لم افتحها الى الأن وكذلك موقعك

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

لا مشكلة أختي الكريمة إن شاء الله. هذا جوابي:

Thank you. Your answer raises so many questions to my mind, but for the sake of clarification, let's take things one step at the time. Would you please point me to where I can find all the above-mentioned in the bible?
Thanks.

تم ارسال الرد بارك الله فيك أخي الأمير الأحمر فعلاً ردودك رائعه ومبسطه نفع الله بعلمك

الأمريكي

Hi there some of the main thoughts come from Philipians chapter 2
PHP 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

PHP 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

PHP 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

PHP 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

PHP 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!

PHP 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,

PHP 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

PHP 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Besides that:
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Immanuel means God with us.

Matthew Chapter 1
MT 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

MT 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

MT 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

MT 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Luke Chapter 1
LK 1:26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

LK 1:29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

LK 1:34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

LK 1:35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37 For nothing is impossible with God."

LK 1:38 "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.

As far as his sacrifice for us.
Isaiah 53 (suffering servant)
ISA 53:1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

ISA 53:2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

ISA 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

ISA 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

ISA 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

ISA 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

ISA 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

ISA 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

ISA 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

ISA 53:10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

And then connect that to the crucifiction and resurrection stories in the 4 gospels. Matthew 26-28, Mark 14-15, Luke 22-24, John 18-19

this is kinda a lot already sorry, so I'll stop here.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

جزاك الله كل خير أختي الكريمة على إطراءك الذي لا أستحقه. الأمر فعلاً بسيط. علينا فقط ألا ننجرف وراء تفريعاتهم التي لا تنتهي ونركز على الأساس. تفضلي الرد إن شاء الله.

Thanks a lot. I really appreciate you taking the time to get me to understand this.

This really IS a lot. It also raises so many more questions. But I think I'll hang on to them till I get your reply on this most important one -in my opinion.

So according to the scriptures you sent me, Jesus never claimed to be God, and those who said he was God were those who followed him (mainly Paul)? Coz I've noticed you put about 20 verses up there, but not a single one from the mouth of Jesus!

Thanks again for taking the time.

هذه هي نقظة التركيز الآن إن شاء الله. أن عيسى عليه السلام لم يدعي في كتابهم أنه الله ولو مرة واحدة. إن أكرم الله بالرد الذي أتوقعه منه، سننتقل إن شاء الله في حوالي رسالتين إلى الحديث عن تحريف كتابه.

والله الهادي، والله من وراء القصد.