بارك الله فيك اخى الفاضل وجعلك ذخرا للاسلام والمسلمين

وللاسف سوف تنتظر طويلا لان مثل هؤلاء ابسط اجابة عندهم انه غير مقتنع او لا تغير الموضوع بالرغم من انك تتحدث فى صميم الموضوع
صدق ربى حينما قال {صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ }البقرة18

والحمد لله على نعمة الاسلام وكفى بها نعمة

و الله النصارى معتدين فاسقين .. يعلمون الحق و يجحدونه..
لأنهم يتكلمون و يريدون أن يقنعون بما هو مظنة الظن ، و ليس بمقطوع و لا بمثبت ..

كل يوم الرسول صلى الله عليه و سلم ينسخ عن أحد ، و الله لو كان رئيس جامعة هارفرد لم يستطع أن ينسخ هذا تانسخ و تحت يديه كل هؤلاء البروفسورات.. أينسخ من :
1- العهد الجديد؟
2- القديم؟
3- التلمود؟
4- الشعر العربي؟
5- التراث الهندوسي؟
6- علوم الفراعنة؟
؟
؟
؟
؟


و الله العظيم إنهم ظالمون.

الجاهل يغلب . . .

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

الحمدلله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه أجمعين

أخى الفاضل / المهتدى للإسلام

بارك الله فيك و زادك من علمه . المناقشة مع هذا الغبى ذو الصوت المكتوم و يدعى كذبا أنه صوت صارخ ذكرنى بمقولة أحد الإئمة ( ما ناقشنى عالم إلا و غلبته . . . و ما ناقشنى جاهل إلا و غلبنى ) .

لك الله و تقبل تحياتى

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله
هنا موضوع مشابه حول تفنيد لشبهة إقتباس القرنآ الكريم لقصةيوسف عليه السلام من المدراش اليهودي (من كتب التلمود و هي تفاسير التوراة) بحيث ان هذا الكتاب لم يستقر إلا عند القرون الوسطى و ارجو من الاخوة من لديه علم حول الموضوع أن يفيدنا جزاكم الله خيرا

Assalamu-`alaykum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
1. Introduction The story of Prophet Joseph in Surah 12 of the Qur'an has been dealt with extensively in the Western literature from various angles. It has been compared with the story in the Book of Genesis in the Hebrew Bible.[1] The story of Joseph in the Qur'an is also discussed on the basis of dramatic dialogue and the themes which it presents.[2] Mustansir Mir has shown that this story is neatly structured on the analogy of the literary-rhetorical device of al-laff wa 'l-nashr `alā 'l-`aks (involution and evolution in reverse).[3] This is to say that the plot begins to unravel, but the tensions are resolved in reverse order.
The story of Joseph in the Qur'an was also subjected to polemics by Torrey[4] and Macdonald[5]. It is their claim that the Qur'anic story, in certain parts, can only be "understood" using the Jewish Midrashic literature mainly Midrash Yalkut, Midrash Genesis Rabbah and Tanhuma. It appears that most of the cases of alleged "understanding" had been dealt with by Geiger with nothing much left on the plate of Torrey and Macdonald except that they repeated most of the earlier allegations and supplemented them with other Midrashic sources such as Midrash Ha-Gadol. Geiger also provided Sefer Ha-Yashar as another source to "understand" parts of the story of Joseph in the Qur'an.[6] Christian apologists such as J. W. Sweetman[7] and N. A. Newman[8] and polemicists such as Ibn Warraq[9] have also jumped onto this bandwagon of the "incoherency" of the Qur'anic account.
The implicit assumption of this "understanding" the "incoherent" Qur'anic account by using the Midrashic sources such as Midrash Yalkut, Midrash Genesis Rabbah, Tanhuma, Midrash Ha-Gadol and Sefer Ha-Yashar is that these sources existed before the advent of Islam and that the Prophet Muhammad misread, misunderstood or misheard the story of Joseph. No effort has been made by any of these scholars to even check the time of redaction and dating of the Jewish sources. In this paper we would like to examine what the dates of compilation or redaction of the sources are and then see how well they fit into our "understanding" of the "incoherent" arguments of Geiger and his likes.
2. The List Of Alleged "Incoherencies" The principal claims of alleged "incoherency" of Qur'anic account and its "coherent" understanding using the Jewish Midrashic sources can be listed as follows:

1. The Qur'anic story does not give the reason why al-Aziz's wife provided knives to the women whom she had invited for feast so that they could see Joseph's beauty for themselves. The Midrash Yalkut and Midrash Ha-Gadol give the reason that the knives were given to them so that they could eat fruit.
2. In the Qur'an, Jacob advises his sons to enter the city by different gates and not from one gate. This can be "coherently" understood only if we read Midrash Genesis Rabbah, Tanhuma and Midrash Ha-Gadol as they provide the "reason" for it.
3. When the cup is found in Benjamin's sack and he is proclaimed a thief, his brothers said, "If he stole, there was a brother of his who did steal before" [12:77]. According to Torrey, the Muslim commentators are at their wits' end to explain how Joseph could have been accused of stealing. The Qur'anic story can be explained only by referring to Midrash Genesis Rabbah, Tanhuma and Midrash Ha-Gadol. What is amusing is that Torrey, instead of showing how Joseph stole, instead states that the Midrashim refer to Benjamin's mother before him who had stolen, not Joseph!

3. Dating The Jewish Sources 1. Midrash Yalkut Shimeoni: More than a century ago, Zunz pointed out that the Midrash Yalkut Shimeoni had been compiled in the 13th century CE by Simeon ha-Darshan.[10] This dating is still accepted today. The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:Similarly Epstein inclines to agree2. Midrash Ha-Gadol: It is the largest of all the midrashic collections. Concerning the dating and the nature of composition The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia says:It is universally regarded that David b. Amram of Aden (Yemen) was the author of Midrash Ha-Gadol. David b. Amram is usually dated in the 13th century.[14]
3. Sefer Ha-Yashar: According to the Encyclopaedia Judaica Sefer Ha-Yashar wasSome scholars like J. Dan have suspected that this work was composed only at the beginning of the 16th century in Naples. In support of this idea J. Genot cites the description of Joseph as a Jewish astronomer at a Gentile court, the use of the astrolabe, and contemporary influences on biblical narratives. The Venice edition of Sefer Ha-Yashar appeals to a 1552 printed edition of Naples, which, however, apparently never existed.[16] Concerning the contemporary influences on Sefer Ha-Yashar, Zunz points out the existence of various Arab names in it.[17]
4. Midrash Tanhuma: A detailed discussion about the dating of this book is given elsewhere. It is sufficient to say that this Midrash is dated to the 9th century CE.[18]
5. Midrash Genesis Rabbah: Very briefly, although scholars had claimed that this Midrash was edited in the 6th century CE, it has now been shown that the text of this Midrash was horribly unstable even when in the Middle Ages.[19] Hence, there is no way of identifying what actually constituted the "original" text. There are chapters of Vayishlach, Vayigash, Vayechi etc. that have gone through extensive changes and have been drawn from Tanhuma homilies. Tanhuma homilies themselves were complied in the ninth century CE as stated above.
4. Conclusions Geiger and others claimed that the Qur'anic story of Joseph, in certain parts, can only be "understood" using the Jewish Midrashic literature. It is clear from the above discussion that Midrash Yalkut, Midrash Ha-Gadol, Sefer Ha-Yashar, Tanhuma and Midrash Genesis Rabbah are either late compilations or are textually unstable. They all reached their final form a few hundred years after the advent of Islam. The implicit assumption of the "understanding" of "incoherent" Qur'anic account by using the Midrashic sources is that these Midrashic sources existed before the advent of Islam and that the Prophet did not the comprehend the story of Joseph properly is untenable. What is interesting is that the Muslim commentaries had crystallised much earlier than much of the Jewish Midrashic literature. Further, there is at least one Midrash (Ha-Gadol) that had incorporated the Islamic sources in its material. It is quite obvious that one cannot use sources that came a few hundred years after the advent of Islam to explain the Qur'anic narrative. The textual instability as well as the absence of pre-Islamic manuscripts of the Midrashic sources make it impossible to determine the precise nature of the text itself.Furthermore, after a detailed discussion about the Midrashim used to "understand" the Qur'an, Macdonald says that:And that speaks quite well of the whole "understanding".

References & Notes
[1] M. A. S. Abdel Haleem, "The Story Of Joseph In The Qur'an And The Old Testament", Islam & Christian Muslim Relations, 1990, Volume I, pp. 171-191.
[2] A. H. Johns, "Joseph In The Qur'an: Dramatic Dialogue, Human Emotion And Prophetic Wisdom", Islamochristiana, 1981, Volume 7, pp. 29-55.
[3] M. Mir, "The Qur'anic Story Of Joseph: Plot, Themes And Characters", The Muslim World, 1986, Volume LXXVI, pp. 1-15. See also a similar observation by Marilyn Robinson Waldman in "New Approaches To 'Biblical' Materials In The Qur'an", The Muslim World, 1985, Volume LXXV, p. 9.
[4] C. C. Torrey, The Jewish Foundation Of Islam, 1967, Ktav Publishing House, Inc.: New York, pp. 109-113.
[5] J. Macdonald, "Joseph In The Qur'an And Muslim Commentary - I", The Muslim World, 1956, Volume 46, pp. 113-131; idem., "Joseph In The Qur'an And Muslim Commentary - II", The Muslim World, 1956, Volume 46, pp. 207-224.
[6] A. Geiger, Judaism And Islam (English Translation Of Was hat Mohammed aus dem Judenthume aufgenommen?), 1970, Ktav Publishing House Inc.: New York, pp. 110-118.
[7] J. W. Sweetman, Islam And Christian Theology: A Study Of The Interpretation Of Theological Ideas In The Two Religions, 1945, Volume I, Part 1 (Preparatory History Survey of the Early Period), Lutterworth Press: London & Redhill, pp. 10-11.
[8] N. A. Newman, Muhammad, The Qur'an & Islam, 1996, Interdisciplinary Biblical Research Institute: Hatfield (PA), pp. 378-380.
[9] Ibn Warraq,Why I Am Not A Muslim, 1995, Prometheus Books: Amherst, NY, pp. 58-59.
[10] L. Zunz,Die Gottesdienstlichen Vorträge der Juden: Historisch Entwickelt, 1892, Verlag von J. Kauffmann: Frankfurt, pp. 308-315. The dating is discussed in pp. 312-315.
[11] "Yalkut Shimoni", Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 16, Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, col. 707.
[12] "Yalkut", The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1905, Volume XII, Funk And Wagnells Company: London & New York, p. 586; Also see for similar dating "Yalkut Shimeoni", The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1969, Volume 10, Ktav Publishing House, Inc.: New York, p. 586; H. L. Strack & G. Stemberger (Trans. Markus Bockmuehl), Introduction To The Talmud And Midrash, 1991, T & T Clark: Edinburgh (Scotland), p. 384.
[13] "Midrash Hagadol", The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1969, Volume 7, Ktav Publishing House, Inc.: New York, pp. 539-540.
[14] H. L. Strack & G. Stemberger (Trans. Markus Bockmuehl), Introduction To The Talmud And Midrash, 1991, op cit., p. 386; See also "Midrash Ha-Gadol", Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 11, Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, col. 1515-1516.
[15] "Sefer Ha-Yashar", Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 14, Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, col. 1099.
[16] H. L. Strack & G. Stemberger (Trans. Markus Bockmuehl), Introduction To The Talmud And Midrash, 1991, op cit., p. 359. It appears that the author of the English translation of Sefer Ha-Yashar was unaware of the the non-existence of the Naples edition, see Sefer Hayashar: The Book Of Generation Of Adam, 1993, Ktav Publishing House, Inc.: Holboken (New Jersey), p. v.
[17] L. Zunz,Die Gottesdienstlichen Vorträge der Juden: Historisch Entwickelt, 1892, op cit., p. 164.
[18] L. Zunz,Die Gottesdienstlichen Vorträge der Juden: Historisch Entwickelt, 1892, op cit., pp. 246-247. Full discussion on Tanhuma Yelammedenu is from pp. 237-250; H. L. Strack & G. Stemberger (Trans. Markus Bockmuehl),Introduction To The Talmud And Midrash, 1991, op cit., p. 332. Also see "Tanhuma Yelammedenu",Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 15, col. 795; Berman, who translated Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu from a manuscript, says that the earliest form of the text appeared in the late eight or the ninth century, see Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu: An English Translation Of Genesis And Exodus From The Printed Version Of Tanhuma-Yelammedenu With An Introduction, Notes, And Indexes, 1996, Ktav Publishing House, Inc.: New Jersey, p. xii; M. Waxman,A History Of Jewish Literature: From The Close Of The Canon To The End Of The Twelfth Century, 1960, Volume I, Thomas Yoseloff: New York & London, p. 139. Waxman differentiates between Tanhuma and Yelammedenu, which is in contrary to the modern scholarship.
[19] Hans-Jürgen Becker, "Texts And History: The Dynamic Relationship Between Talmud Yerushalmi And Genesis Rabbah", in Shaye J. D. Cohen (ed.) The Synoptic Problem In Rabbinic Literature, 2000, Brown Judaic Studies: Providence (RI), pp. 145-158.
[20] J. Macdonald, "Joseph In The Qur'an And Muslim Commentary - II", The Muslim World,1956, op cit., p. 224.



http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur.../BByalkut.html

السلام عليكم
جزاك الله خيراً
لكن حضرتك إزاي الخنزير ده يقول "تخاريف القرآن" وأنت تقول له "أخي الكريم" في المشاركة التي بعدها
إن كنا نريد أن نهديه للحق فليس هذا قول من يريد أن يهتدي
والدين عزيز
وتقبل نقدي

بارك الله فيك أخونا المهتدى. اتمنى ان تظهر فى قناة الناس أنت أيضاً.

المغضوب عليهم . . . و الضالين . . .

احزنني هدا المسكين لقد كان مصيدة سهله اذ وضع نفسه في موقف صعب دلك ان طلب المناقشه في اضعف كتب الناس اسناداالا وهو تلمود االيهود الممتلئ المفعم بالثغرات والخرافاتوالله ان اسنادات التلمود لهي اوهن من بيت العنكبوت اما كان الاحرى له ان لو اختار موضوع حواره عن التوراة مثلا لو فعل لكان اطال بقاءه اكثر قليلا لما خرج بهذه الطريقة المخزيه مايضحكني انه اول ما اطل بطلته البهيه\طلة واثق الخطى\ظننته الاسد المخضرم وقلت في نفسي سيطول امره قليلا مع العلم ان تلموده لا يناقش من الاساس ولكن والله غشتني بداياته اذ ظننته ذا باع واذ بي اراه يتخاذل بعد كل جواب من اخينا المحاور طل كالاسد وهرب كالولد طل ثم اضمحل كأنه خفظ اربع ابيات من قصيدة الالف بيت على فكره اختار لنفسه اسم صوت صارخ يعني نبؤة الانجيل عن يوحنا المعمدان صوت صارخ في البريه....قوموا طريق الرب....... الخ على كل وفقك الله اخ عاقل اذ عقلته من لجامه والسلام الى باقي الاخوان

احزنني هدا المسكين لقد كان مصيدة سهله اذ وضع نفسه في موقف صعب دلك ان طلب المناقشه في اضعف كتب الناس اسناداالا وهو تلمود االيهود الممتلئ المفعم بالثغرات والخرافاتوالله ان اسنادات التلمود لهي اوهن من بيت العنكبوت اما كان الاحرى له ان لو اختار موضوع حواره عن التوراة مثلا لو فعل لكان اطال بقاءه اكثر قليلا لما خرج بهذه الطريقة المخزيه مايضحكني انه اول ما اطل بطلته البهيه\طلة واثق الخطى\ظننته الاسد المخضرم وقلت في نفسي سيطول امره قليلا مع العلم ان تلموده لا يناقش من الاساس ولكن والله غشتني بداياته اذ ظننته ذا باع واذ بي اراه يتخاذل بعد كل جواب من اخينا المحاور طل كالاسد وهرب كالولد طل ثم اضمحل كأنه خفظ اربع ابيات من قصيدة الالف بيت سبحان الله ما اصعب ر الدفاع عن الشيطان على فكره اختار لنفسه اسم صوت صارخ يعني نبؤة الانجيل عن يوحنا المعمدان صوت صارخ في البريه....قوموا طريق الرب....... الخ على كل وفقك الله اخ عاقل اذ عقلته من لجامه والسلام الى باقي الاخوان

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

جزاكم الله خيرا

ووفقكم لما يحبه ويرضاه

السلام عليكم
طبعا يا اخوان عندما يتشدق علينا احد بأن القرآن الكريم فيه قصص مما في التوراة او التلموذ او الانجيل في الحقيقة لا يأخذني سوا الضحك على هذا الاستغباء - و الاحلى انهم يقولون بأن الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام قد علمه الراهب بحيرا مع العلم بأن الرسول كان عمره 10 سنوات عندما التقاه - وكذلك الادعاء بأن الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام قد علمه ورقة ابن نوفل - والحقيقة بأن كل الادعاءات مفندة والحمد الله - وانا اقول كما قال الشيخ احمد ديدات رحمه الله ان اليهود يقولون عن مريم عليها السلام بأنها زانية - والقرآن الكريم يقول بان مريم اصطفاها الله على نساء العالمين وهذا اختلاف عميق- ثم لماذا سيقول رجل عربي(الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام) عن امرأة يهودية (مريم عليها السلام)ان الله اصطفاها على نساء العالمين !!!,. من الناحية الانسانية فإن امهاتنا واخواتنا هم افضل نساء الدنيا- لكن هذا دليل نبوة محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم لأنه ليس بكلامه بل مبلغ لكلمات الله